Cherusci History?

[authun]

The English placenames "Essex", "Sussex" and "Essex" indicate that they did refer to themselves as Saxons.

These are likely terms used by those living outside of the area to describe the peoples living there and not the term that they they used to describe themselves. We term the inhabitants of present day Germany as germans and the french term them allemandes whilst they themselves use the term Deutsch. It would be wrong to look only at the french term and conclude that all the germans thought of themselves as having descended from the allemanni.

The use of the descriptive term 'saxon' probably comes from the British. The irish annals invariably term all the english as saxons even though they were aware of the 'Angles'. So, Oswald of Northumbria is 'king of the saxons' and the battle of the Tyne in 918 is in 'northern saxonland'. Yet Ethelred of Wessex describes himself on his coins as 'Angle'.

In the anglo saxon charters, the mercian Æthelbald refers to them as 'suthengli' and the king of wessex is described as 'rex Suðanglorum terram' or 'rex australium Anglorum'.

cheers

Harry Amphlett

[Primvs Pavlvs]

There are those who believe that Rome never really fell. It simply traded the sword, and shield for the Cross.

[Thiudareiks Flavius]

The English placenames "Essex", "Sussex" and "Essex" indicate that they did refer to themselves as Saxons.

These are likely terms used by those living outside of the area to describe the peoples living there and not the term that they they used to describe themselves.

"Likely" according to who?

We term the inhabitants of present day Germany as germans and the french term them allemandes whilst they themselves use the term Deutsch. It would be wrong to look only at the french term and conclude that all the germans thought of themselves as having descended from the allemanni.

It would be wrong to ignore this, but that still doesn't mean that the South Saxons, West Saxons, Middle Saxons and East Saxons didn't call themselves "Saxons".

The use of the descriptive term 'saxon' probably comes from the British. The irish annals invariably term all the english as saxons even though they were aware of the 'Angles'. So, Oswald of Northumbria is 'king of the saxons' and the battle of the Tyne in 918 is in 'northern saxonland'. Yet Ethelred of Wessex describes himself on his coins as 'Angle'.

Which J.N.L. Myres attributes to the probability that the first waves of invaders and settlers were substantially from Saxony rather than Jutland and Angeln. The Anglo-Saxons called all Vikings "Danes" for the same reason, but that doesn't mean those who were Danish didn't call themselves "Danes" - quite the opposite.

In the anglo saxon charters, the mercian Æthelbald refers to them as 'suthengli' and the king of wessex is described as 'rex Suðanglorum terram' or 'rex australium Anglorum'.

Just as in later centuries people throughout England refered to their language as "Englisc". That doesn't mean some of these "Englisc" speakers weren't descendants of those who called themselves "Saxons" from Saxony.

[authun]

Hi Tim,

There is no evidence that 'saxons' called themselves saxons or that any part the continent was called Saxony even as late as the time of Widukind at the end of the 8th cent. The modern states of Sachsen, Sachsen Anhalt and Niedersachsen are nothing to do with ancient homelands of the 'Saxons'.

Ptolomey places a people he terms saxon on three islands off the west coast of Jutland and also north of the Albis in what is now Holstein, but not in Schleswig. This area has never been called saxony although it contains the largest number of supposedly typical saxon place names with the 'büttel' ending. These peoples are probably the Nordalbingens (Dithmarsher, Holsten and Stormahnen) and the Aviones though the latter were largely replaced by the north frisians in the 8th cent. The Chatti, who lived on the opposite bank to the south of the Elbe and who were known to romans as north sea pirates, disappear from the records around 200AD, about the same time that saxons start to appear in roman or gallo roman sources. They are likely a constituent part of this emerging group.

Barbara Yorke points out that the term 'saxon' in later sources appears to be used to describe any north sea german who is not a Frank. Sometimes further clarification is given such as in Theudebert's letter to Justinian, where he mentiones 'cum Saxonibus Euciis', i.e. Jutish Saxons (ca. 520AD). Mattias Springer also points out in his recent book, Die Sachsen, that Paulus Diaconus' (720/30) first use of the term Anglisaxones is similar in so far as it describes saxons from Anglia. Procopius of course doesn't mention saxons at all, only angles and frisians.

Even the description of Widukind as the Saxon king is a perpetuation of a very old concept which has been passed down uncritically by historians. Widukind was the chief power broker of a group of several north sea germanic tribes, each with its own chieftain, who the Franks collectively referred to a 'Saxons'. We don't know how Widukind thought of himself but he was a Westfali which bordered the territory of the Angrarii, a tribal identity noted by Tacitus. Outsiders however, termed them all saxon.

Springer's book is only available in german but he writes the first chapter in an english language book The Continental Saxons from the Migration Period to the Tenth Century - An Ethnographic Perspective which is edited by Dennis H. Green.

best

Harry Amphlett

[Robert Vermaat]

We term the inhabitants of present day Germany as germans and the french term them allemandes whilst they themselves use the term Deutsch. It would be wrong to look only at the french term and conclude that all the germans thought of themselves as having descended from the allemanni.

It would be wrong to ignore this, but that still doesn't mean that the South Saxons, West Saxons, Middle Saxons and East Saxons didn't call themselves "Saxons".

Erm, I said that before, the West saxons called themselves Gewissae...

[M. Demetrius]

While we're on the subject of the old Germanic languages, is there any kind of source list for personal names of that period?

It is likely that the more modern Germanic and Scandinavian names would have had roots in some of the old names. Some can be gleaned from Caesar, but there must have been hundreds of personal names. Were there naming conventions? All info appreciated.