Two Swords for the Legionary?

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

All art involving a model is done facing the subject. Anyone skilled enough to do even a mediocre job at it will still put things in the proper place. I been to art classes with many people and nobody got the details in the wrong place. You're saying they were visually dyslexic.

[Matthew]

I was referencing the above explanation for why Josephus might have got it wrong... however, I do think it is perfectly possible for artists and writers to make mistakes of this kind. If a recall correctly, Trajan's column has a few bloopers on it [depending on your interpretation, of course].

To be clear, though, I do not really think that facing the subject would cause the artist (or Josephus) to get things wrong. It's possible, but implausable (for me).


Matthew James Stanham

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Sorry,Matthew. I may have misunderstood. I do believe,though, he very well could have been looking at auxillaries.Maybe to him anyone in the
Roman army was Roman in the same context that many peoples are lumped together by race but not necessarily nationality. I know that by the time he wrote this he should have known better but maybe he didn't think his readers would. I posted the Greek version earlier in hopes one of RAT's Greek speaking members could help with translation.
Insanely wild speculation for sure.

[Marius_Ursus]

Is it possible that Josephus actually wrote "blades"?

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Even so,he still says the one on the left was longer.

[Marius_Ursus]

Allow me to split hairs and ask if the "left" is as you're facing the legionary or facing with the legionary? :wink:

[Matthew]

Sorry,Matthew. I may have misunderstood. I do believe,though, he very well could have been looking at auxillaries.Maybe to him anyone in the
Roman army was Roman in the same context that many peoples are lumped together by race but not necessarily nationality. I know that by the time he wrote this he should have known better but maybe he didn't think his readers would. I posted the Greek version earlier in hopes one of RAT's Greek speaking members could help with translation.
Insanely wild speculation for sure.

No apology necessary. I too am hoping somebody more learned in Greek will be able to solve this oddity. Auxillaries or Centurions would be my best bet at his stage, but then he does not make the same claim about the Cavalry... I am not even sure what would have been 'normal' for them at this point. Trajan's Column and the Column of Marcus Aurelius tend to depict the Sword on the right, regardless of whether mounted or on foot or wearing Segmentata or Hamata. I suppose it was the mark of being Roman at this time. Even so, there is the odd instance when one is depicted with the opposite configuration.

Matthew James Stanham

[D B Campbell]

Many possibilities outside the text exist to explain Josephus' statement; are there any other indications within the text, though?

There can be no doubt: Josephus definitely says that "the infantry are defended by cuirasses and helmets and bear swords (machairai) on both sides".

At first sight, machaira seems an odd choice of word for "sword" here. I don't have access to a Concordance, so I'm not sure how often Josephus uses that word to indicate the straight Roman sword (rather than the curved blade we normally think of for a machaira).

But there's no getting away from the main point: "of these, the sword (this time the more usual "xiphos") on the left is much longer, for the one on the right has a length of not more than a span". (The span was 22 or 23cm.)

[Dan Diffendale]

Greek, eh? Well, for what it's worth...

He's talking about infantry (οἱ... πεζοὶ) oi( pezoi\\, "footmen".

μαχαιροφοροῦντες ἀμφοτέρωθεν maxairofou~ntes )amfote/rwqen
"bearing machairai on both sides." The LSJ defines ma/xaira as a "large knife or dirk," as opposed to the ci/fos (xiphos) or sword -- but we shouldn't make too much of that distinction here, just understand "blades on both sides of the body".

makro/teron d' au)tw~n to\\ laio\\n ci/fos pollwi~
"but their left-hand/left-side xiphos (sword) is longer by far"

to\\ ga\\r kata\\ to\\ decio\\n spiqamh~s ou) ple/on e)/xei to\\ mh~kos.
"For the one (sc. xiphos) on the right side/right hand (kata to dexion) has a measure not more than a span."

[Dan Diffendale]

Oops, looks like Duncan beat me to the punch.

As for machaira, from what I can tell from Perseus, its only other use in The Jewish War is in the description of the arms of the Roman cavalry in the passage immediately following, 3.96, the "machaira... makra".

Xiphos shows up at least 13 times, and seems to refer indiscriminately to both Jewish and Roman weapons.

[Marcus Julius]

....and carry a blade on each side;

I think this is more of the proper 'interpretation'. Although the intended wording may have been to say swords, blades would probably the correct term of description.

I don't know Greek, so I can't say which would be the literal translation, but I would be inclined to lean toward translation error, rather than descriptive error.

[Marcus Julius]

Even so,he still says the one on the left was longer.

Arguing whether he was smart enough to swap them for 'their' left / right. The question, again would lie in translation. Does he write "the" left, or "their" left. Again, I don't speak Greek, so I can't tell. However, of the languages I have studied, I know that "the" and "his" can be the same word in the other language.

[Dan Diffendale]

The Greek says to laion xiphos, "the left xiphos/sword." Could mean "their left" or "the left."

[tlclark]

All art involving a model is done facing the subject. Anyone skilled enough to do even a mediocre job at it will still put things in the proper place. I been to art classes with many people and nobody got the details in the wrong place. You're saying they were visually dyslexic.

That's what Hockney claims about the 17th C. painters. LOL

On a more serious note regarding late finds. The tomb of Childeric as two swords, one shorter than the other. St. Mercurious and other equestrian saints are shown with two swords. We even discussed this a while back. Most historians think this is visual flourish, but most re-enacters thought it was a prudent back up weapon. The Josephus quote is far earlier but it fits with the later practice.

Travis

[Tarbicus]

But there's no getting away from the main point: "of these, the sword (this time the more usual "xiphos") on the left is much longer, for the one on the right has a length of not more than a span".

All art involving a model is done facing the subject. Anyone skilled enough to do even a mediocre job at it will still put things in the proper place.

Imagine you are stood looking at a legionary, describing what you see to someone beside you. If you were pointing out the gladius worn on the right hip to a fellow observer you would say, with finger pointed, "There, on the left." However, to clarify you might say "That's his right, our left." It's a very common thing to happen when pointing things out on people as they also have a left and a right which can be used as a description. As Josephus is describing the image to someone who is not there he may well be putting an image in their head as if they were stood beside him, and I would suggest he means his left, which is the subject's right, as he doesn't have any fellow observer to query which one and make him clarify.