In search of Pectorale...

[Gaius Marius Cingetorix]

I'm looking for any detail photo's, patterns, or info that will keep me from reinventing the wheel while trying to put together my own Pectorale(breastplate) for my republican roman SCA kit. I've seen some plain plates, and some with criss crossing arrows patterns.... was hopping for a Gorgon, or some confirmation that they may have had any designs at all. I'm also interested in shots of how people have strapped their reconstructions. Thanks!!

[Matthew Amt]

Ave!

You want Dan Diffendale's pages on early Italian gear:

http://www.freewebtown.com/italica/ital ... armor.html

And here's an Italian page that has round ones, mostly:

http://xoomer.alice.it/davmonac/sanniti/kardioph1.html

Round ones were definitely the most common, and yes, embossing was the rule. The ones with patterns of raised dots are easiest to do, and I suspect they are earlier, dating back into the Bronze Age. Iron Age ones could have raised concentric rings, or complex designs of animals, warriors, etc.

I do like the square ones with muscling, though! Very Samnite. The triple-disc style is also very cool, though probably beyond my capabilities.

Some pectorals have one or two hinged bronze straps connecting them, and even plates on the sides, almost like a belt. That's how I did mine--I figured if it was Roman, it HAD to have hinges somewhere...

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/Qrepub.jpg

But others just had leather straps, like my buddy Titus used on his:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/rcRD28.jpg

(His plates aren't actually plain, they have a simple scribed design which doesn't show up in this photo.)

Good luck!

Matthew

[Gaius Marius Cingetorix]

Matthew,
Thanks!

Is there a chance I could get a close up shot of yours? I had already found a copy of the photo you posted in my googlings :wink: E-mail it if its too much of a pain to post.

[Matthew Amt]

This weekend I started a list of things I need to get photos of--got a few requests for details of my Greek stuff, too. My pectoral is on the list. Mostly a matter of finding an hour or two with the camera, but shouldn't be a big problem. I'll let you know!

Vale,

Matthew

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Hello,

You can see some pectorale in that photo of a spanish event.

http://segeda.net/eventos/vulca/f_2005/fig_06.jpg

There are made by a very good friend: Jose Manuel Pastor, a master in repousse.

[Dan Diffendale]

Cesar, were all the different pectorals (Spanish, square, short muscle cuirass, triple-disc cuirass) made by Jose? It's cool stuff!

I found some other pictures from the Segeda site:
http://segeda.net/eventos/vulca/f_2005/fig_01.jpg (Square and square-muscle)
http://segeda.net/eventos/vulca/f_2005/fig_02.jpg (Spanish)
http://segeda.net/eventos/vulca/f_2005/fig_05.jpg - great repousse

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Yes. All of them. The montefortinos too.

[Matt Lukes]

Here's one I made a few months ago: link from old RAT

[Matthew Amt]

Okay, got a couple photos of mine up, not the greatest but hopefully they'll get the point across. Shiny metal makes for great bling bling but lousy photographs...

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/pectoral1.jpg

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/pectoral2.jpg

Both of these are now found on the Legio XX Photos page, in the section "Equipment from Other Eras" near the bottom of the page.

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/photos.html

I used 20-gauge brass. The shoulder plates are hinged at the middle, though it's hard to see very well. The end of each plate is just folded and then notched to form the hinge.

Gotta tell you, the first time I wore this rig, I darn near gave up on the Empire! THREE POUNDS of armor?? That's for me!

Valete,

Matthew

[Gaius Marius Cingetorix]

Thanks to you all! Now I have a better clue.

Matthew, what are the dimensions on your plate? 9x9? Would give me a scale to operate from.

[Poftim]

What is your source for the thickness of the pectorale, Matthew Amt? 20 guage seems a little thin to me, especially if the helmets were about 1/8 of an inch. (2-3 mm)

Edited to add: Polybius says that the Hastati wore a 9 inch square brestplate. Why did you say that round was the most common? Have their been more round pectorales found than square ones?

Also, what material were the real ones made out of?

[Matthew Amt]

Oh, yeah, dimensions! Mine's actually a tad small, c. 8-1/2" tall by 8-1/8" wide (c. 21.5 x 20.6 cm).

The thickness probably depended most on the piece of metal I had! The dimensions, too. Don't remember where I got it, but it turned out to be a slightly redder piece of brass than what I usually have. I'd have to poke through my sources to see if there is any other data, but it could be that I simply got the impression from Connolly or elsewhere that they were really thin. Oh, and the originals would have been bronze, though some were backed with iron plates. (Brass apparently shows up in the early Empire (maybe late Republic, not sure about that)).

especially if the helmets were about 1/8 of an inch. (2-3 mm)

Whoa, what helmets have you see that were that thick?? Everything I've seen points to about 1mm for helmets, roughly 18 gauge, though some cheekpieces (such as those from Xanten) could be even thinner. My own helmet is all 18 gauge, and weighs 5 pounds, which seems to be more than a lot of originals.

Why did you say that round was the most common? Have their been more round pectorales found than square ones?

Again, it's been too long since I did the research. I've seen only round ones from the Punic War era (though only a few in any case)--the rectangular ones that I based mine on were actually Villanovan. Those fancy Italian ones are mostly round Plus there are the rectangular muscled ones and the triple-disc style, which are really cool, of course! So for a Punic-War era Roman, it's kind of a dilemma, either to go with Polybius and do a square one, in which case you have to conjecture on the decoration, or copy an existing round one. The round one in Bishop and Coulston was completely covered in raised concentric rings, which I knew was beyond my embossing skills! Plus my metal probably wasn't big enough to make both discs, so rectangular it was.

Some of these pectorals date back to the Bronze Age--I'd like to do one of those someday!

Vale,

Matthew

[Gaius Marius Cingetorix]

Poftim,
Slightly OT but I thought you would get a kick out of this. The 4th century BC Montefortino you use as your avatar was the inspiration for my SCA Helm that the guys at Windrose Armoury helped me make a reality. Here is a shot..


Matthew, thanks again and I will surely get a copy of Peter Conolly's: "Greece and Rome at War" like you suggested.

[Poftim]

Cool helmet, Gaius Marius Cingetorix.

Matthew, thanks again for the information. I got my info on thickness from right here: [url:303vo38u]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_helmets/task,view/cid,56/Itemid,96/[/url]

Also, a little off topic, but were the Romans still using feathers in their helmets during the Punic Wars, or was it all horsehair by that time?

[Matthew Amt]

I got my info on thickness from right here:

Ah, gotcha. Well, it could be a thicker helmet, or it could be that helmets from that far back in the Republic were generally thicker than in the Empire. Or it could be that corrosion has made the surface lumpy (which it seems to be), adding to the measurement. Now that I think about it, I think I remember a batch of helmets from Xanten that were all around 1 mm thick--have to dig out the information. Either way, we need more data! I love being proven wrong!

Also, a little off topic, but were the Romans still using feathers in their helmets during the Punic Wars, or was it all horsehair by that time?

Polybius is the one who mentions the feathers, and he's our main source for that era. There may be a few depictions of feathers, too (the 3 vertical ones, I mean, not the Imperial fan-shaped crest made of feathers). All we have for later is artwork, and little enough of that.

Vale,

Matthew