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298?
#1
I have read that only 298 spartans died at Thermopylae not 300. That there were two survivors, but I have been unable to find this anywhere else. Dose anyone know if this in fact true or not?
Valour is the strength, not of arms and legs,but of the heart and soul
-Lee
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#2
Well, in the MOVIE version from the 50s, IIRC, one youngster was sent off by Leonides to "Go tell the Spartans... here we stand obedient to their orders;" but I have always taken that as artistic license. As I try to impress upon my students, you may take useful imagery from Jollywood, but its not wise to get your history there!!!!!! Wink I know of no source that says that there were any “survivorsâ€
Duane C. Young, M.A.
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#3
No this was in a book called "The Greeks at Was". Two of the spartans were sent away after the first or second day of fighting because of sever eye infections. When they heard of what was happening on the third day the two had an argument about what to do. One said they should fallow orders and stay, while the other wanted to go back and fight. they spilt up and theone who went back was killed, and the other fallowed his orders and stayed put. Thats one suvivor. The other was sent as a messenger and didn't return in time to fight on the third day. So thats two survivors
Valour is the strength, not of arms and legs,but of the heart and soul
-Lee
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#4
It is always hard to say what is a historical fact, but Herodotus 7.229 mentions two soldiers who were suffering from ophthalmia and were absent when the Spartans were cut off. Eurytus went to the battle and was killed; Aristodemus returned to Sparta. In 7.232, a messenger named Pantitas is mentioned who survived.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#5
it also says that they where labeled as "tremblers"
Valour is the strength, not of arms and legs,but of the heart and soul
-Lee
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#6
Maybe there were survivors. And if Hollywood actually did do research enough to discover that, well, more kudos to them.

Maybe the "tremblers" label mean they were cowards? Not that that's likely with spartans, but perhaps they fell short of Leonidas's standards.
"There are some who call me... Tim..."

Sic vis pacem, para bellum

Exitus acta probat

Nemo saltat sobrius

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

Fortes Fortuna Aduvat

"The enemy outnumber us a paltry three to one! Good odds for any Greek!"
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#7
Well, Herodotus... that’s good enough for me!! He mentions names, and gives perfectly logical explanations. Now, Otoh, I'm not sure as I said above that "I" would classify someone a "survivor" who didn’t fight on the third day. After all, in some accounts there was a messenger sent out of the Alamo with Lt. Col. William Barret Travis' last dispatches who couldn’t get back in time for the final assault; he is not usually counted as a "survivor." Whereas Susanna Dickinson, the wife of an officer and one of two dozen surviving women and children, as well as Jim Bowie's slave Sam and Lt. Col. Travis' slave Joe, all found in the Alamo after the battle by the Mexican Army and let go, are... IYGMD. But, I guess that is a case of semantics, and others are more comfortable calling the two of Herodotus’ of his three named individuals “survivors.â€
Duane C. Young, M.A.
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#8
I still remember my reaction to reading, when I was around 12, that the spartans were not alone and that the thespians sacrificed themselves too. I felt betrayed Sad x It seemed to me the spartans robbed the show!

Now this thread on the two suvivours... :roll: Well it kind of rubs me the wrong way :wink: What about the thespians!! They too were heroes Cry The spartans Confusedhock: were the tough guys, the born-to-be-warriors, the fearless and/or mad to face certain defeat. The thespians could have easily left. They didn't :!:
Jeffery Wyss
"Si vos es non secui of solutio tunc vos es secui of preciptate."
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#9
One guy with eye infection was sent by Leonidas back and he was killed in Platea. There was no official fault found on him by the Ephors but he possibly couldn't stand the" accusing looks" of the relatives of those who died.
There are modern war veterans who feel they had survived unjustly while their comraids were killed.
Pantitas "messenger" in "enemy sympathsing" even trasonous Thessaly :!:
Seems more like secret mission of the dreaded Krypteia.
Whom did he wacked ?
Spartans wouln't like to tell Herodotus details Iguess.

Jeff I agree with about the Thespians. Paul allen woud agrre too.
In Greece though there is alos a monument for them in Thermopylae!
Kind regards
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#10
There are probably many variations on the tale. I read that one of the Ophthalmia sufferers committed suicide, after his return to Sparta and the other, having been treated like a coward, demonstrated such desperate courage at Plataea that he was reprimanded for his recklessness! Such a "Catch 22" has the ring of truth to it.

As Stefanos rightly says, I do agree about the Thespians.
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#11
Quote:I read that one of the Ophthalmia sufferers committed suicide, after his return to Sparta and the other, having been treated like a coward, demonstrated such desperate courage at Plataea that he was reprimanded for his recklessness!
The last is correct, but the man who committed suicide was not one of those suffering from bad eyesight. The man who killed himself was the messenger to Thessaly. Krypteia, as Stefanos suggests, sounds plausible.

Quote:Two of these three hundred, it is said, namely Eurystos and
Aristodemos, who, if they had made agreement with one another, might
either have come safe home to Sparta together (seeing that they had
been dismissed from the camp by Leonidas and were lying at Alpenoi
with disease of the eyes, suffering extremely), or again, if they had
not wished to return home, they might have been slain together with
the rest,--when they might, I say, have done either one of these two
things, would not agree together; but the two being divided in
opinion, Eurystos, it is said, when he was informed that the Persians
had gone round, asked for his arms and having put them on ordered his
Helot to lead him to those who were fighting; and after he had led him
thither, the man who had led him ran away and departed, but Eurystos
plunged into the thick of the fighting, and so lost his life: but
Aristodemos was left behind fainting. Now if either Aristodemos
had been ill alone, and so had returned home to Sparta, or the
men had both of them come back together, I do not suppose that the
Spartans would have displayed any anger against them; but in this
case, as the one of them had lost his life and the other, clinging to
an excuse which the first also might have used, had not been
willing to die, it necessarily happened that the Spartans had great
indignation against Aristodemos. Some say that Aristodemos came
safe to Sparta in this manner, and on a pretext such as I have said;
but others, that he had been sent as a messenger from the camp, and
when he might have come up in time to find the battle going on, was
not willing to do so, but stayed upon the road and so saved his life,
while his fellow-messenger reached the battle and was slain. When
Aristodemos, I say, had returned home to Lacedemon, he had reproach
and dishonour; and that which he suffered by way of dishonour was
this,--no one of the Spartans would either give him light for a fire
or speak with him, and he had reproach in that he was called
Aristodemos the coward. He however in the battle at Plataia
repaired all the guilt that was charged against him: but it is
reported that another man also survived of these three hundred, whose
name was Pantites, having been sent as a messenger to Thessaly, and
this man, when he returned back to Sparta and found himself
dishonoured, is said to have strangled himself.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#12
thanks guys you've helped alot, and I didn't mean survivors really. just that there were spartans who fought at Thermopylae and didn't die there.
Valour is the strength, not of arms and legs,but of the heart and soul
-Lee
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#13
Quote:thanks guys you've helped alot, and I didn't mean survivors really. just that there were spartans who fought at Thermopylae and didn't die there.
Roger, understand now. Sorry if I got too pedantic. I guess the issues I am having right now with a thesis student's lack of clarity in his writing rubbed off on my "attitude!" :lol: Sincere apologies. And really, an interesting thread!!! Seriously! Wink
Duane C. Young, M.A.
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#14
Sorry for the threadomancy, but I found this on Wikipedia, in the entry on Leonidas:

Quote:On a sidenote two of the Spartans who were present at Thermopylae survived the conflict on the third day. One who suffered an eye injury was sent behind the lines and was taken back to Sparta with the retreating allies. He later killed himself for being considered a coward by his people. The other was killed charging the persians at Plataea 479B.C
"There are some who call me... Tim..."

Sic vis pacem, para bellum

Exitus acta probat

Nemo saltat sobrius

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

Fortes Fortuna Aduvat

"The enemy outnumber us a paltry three to one! Good odds for any Greek!"
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