Roman Eagle belt plate

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

I have seen references to a swords found under a barracks floor (?) with a mish-mash of belt plates with it. It was in an article that Mat Amp sent me some years ago and now I can't find it. Other than the sword which had some single buckle apparently to fit it to the belt, of interest was a partial belt plate with an eagle motif.

Does anyone have:

A. A picture / drawing of this plate. A small indistinct copy did appear on a RAT thread some time ago.

B. Some temporal reference to the extent and usage of this plate.

C. Anything else that is cool to know about the plate, find, or the site.

Gaius Decius Aquilius
(Ralph Izard)

[Crispvs]

Ralph,

I think the deposit you are referring to was that of a sword and belt found under a barracks floor at Vindonissa seven or eight years ago. The sword was a Mainz type and is the latest example of the type which I am aware of. There were five belt plates, these being the the four standard type 'B' figural motifs and an interesting one (parallelled by others from the same site). The 'wolf and twins' plate and 'emperor and cornucopiae' plate are complete and are rather square, lacking the usual tubes at either side. The 'chasing animals plate is incomplete but appears to have been round (round belt plates are illustrated on a number of sculptures). Two animals remain. The 'acanthus leaves' plate is badly damaged and whiclst it is tempting to think it might also have been round, not enough appears to be left of the edge to tell. The unusual plate is the wings and thunderbolts plate, which appears to be about two thirds complete. I know of several other plates of this type from Vindonissa but I am not aware of any from other sites (others here may know better than me).

On the matter of buckles, no buckle was present which was large enough to have secured the belt the plates were presumably on. A large button and loop fastener was present however, and the author of the article proposed that this may have been used in place of a normal military buckle. Also present was the remains of a much smaller buckle which seems similar to the buckles found on Corbridge type segmentata. The proposal here was that this buckle may have been used to secure a strap which could have held the sword scabbard onto the belt. This buckle is parallelled by small buckles found with swords from both Herculanium and Delos.

Having typed this, I now realise it was probably me who posted up the small picture you mentioned, so I am posting it up again here. If you send me a PM with your e-mail I can send you the entire article as an attachment.



Crispvs

[Matthew Amt]

Looks like Crispus beat me to it! The article is in ARMA: Newsletter of the Roman Military Equipment Conference, Vol. 10, pp. 2-5, "Vindonissa (Windisch, AG-Switzerland): A Gladius with a Relief Decorated Sheath and Belt Pieces from the Legionary Camp", by Eckhard Deschler-Erb. There's also a photo of that plate, and another like it, in the Vindonissa catalog.

It's a REALLY COOL plate!! Like to make some myself, some day, perhaps. But it's sort of openwork, not just a design stamped into a rectangular plate, so it's possible that it isn't even a belt plate but a decoration for something else. Don't know!

I am a little leery about the reconstruction of the belt and suspension system in the article. As you can see, the buckle found is actually the hinged pieces like a lorica segmentata buckle, with the actual buckle loop missing. It is reconstructed as being used on a strap, threaded through the 4 scabbard rings in an X fashion and buckling to itself. But I don't know if that whole hinged buckle would even fit in that space! I think its more likely just a stray lorica buckle.

Likewise, the "double loop fastener" shown in that drawing (looks like a pugio frog) is a common cloak fastener, and probably wasn't used on a belt at all.

But that's just me! It IS very tempting to make a belt out of a half-dozen mismatched plates--I've got those lying around!

Valete,

Matthew

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Crispvs and Matt,

Thanks for your response. And yes, I think it would make a cool belt plate, but as you bring up, it may be a decoration. The reason I was asking is I am about ready to make some waxes for casting some belt plate dies. (Crispvs, I sent you a PM recently reference your pugio hangers. A lot of waxes wil be done at the same time. Including the Boeotian shield fittings, for that unrelated-to-this-thread project.)

If it is not a deteriorated plate, with the edges missing, is there any obvious method of attachment? One of the problems with finds like this is the original attributes, or the in situ context, is lost with an illustration. What is the possibility that this may be similar to the other find plates, in it being originally rectangular, having no tubing, or are we dealing with a possibly different plate typology? Or maybe some mish-mash of stuff. Under a barracks floor seems to be an odd place in any case.

Ralph

[Peroni]

Could the 'segmentata' type buckle have been used for a belt in the same manner as seen on the grave stele of the aquilifer Gnaeus Musius (Leg XIIII)?

As it is smaller it would certainly accommodate just the thin strap. This pic is from Mike Bishop's JRMES article 1992 "The early imperial 'apron'"

[Crispvs]

Hmmm, good thought. Definitely worth testing with a reconstruction which could be treated roughly to test its effeciency. I agree about the lack of space for a buckle of that sort behind the scabbard (particularly given the fact that the originals are often slightly smaller than the modern reconstructions. I think that both reconstructions shoulf be tested (Drescher-Erb's reconstruction and that proposed here). Anyone up for it?

Crispvs

[Primvs Pavlvs]

I am definately up for it. Where can I get these belt plates?

[Crispvs]

Ah, that could be slightly tricky.

I know of one or two people who can do wolf and twins, head and cornucopiae, and acanthus leaves. However, I do not know of anyone who does chasing animals plates. Add to that the fact that most people who make any of the four standard figural type 'B' plates insist on casting them, rather than stamping and then chasing them as most of the originals were and the fact that none of them seem to do round or borderless type 'B' plates, let alone Vindonissa thunderbolts and suddenly the chances of doing an accurate reconstruction seem fairly remote. That is, as long as you were keen on replicating the possible actual weight of the belt and thus the pressure on the buckle.
I suspect that stamped plates, if they are available anywhere, might end up being quite expensive.

I would be very keen to hear about it though, if you do manage to get a good reconstruction together and test it properly.

Crispvs

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Paulus and Crispvs

This may seem to be a bit OT,at first, but bear with me.

About a year ago I let you both know I was going to send you (and two other people) a set of belt plates. This above mentioned belt plate is the design I ended up with and will cast the dies here soon. They will be pressed from sheet. The die models have to be made from wax, invested, and then kiln fired to remove the wax, at which time molten bronze is the poured into the hot cavity. The dies have to polished and be put in a special press and an annealed sheet then then placed in the press.

When I started gearing up for bronze casting a year ago, I did not realize the extreme expense of having a coherent system. It takes a about $5000 for the first belt buckle. The second one is about $1.00, if the mold is re-usable, however. Plus you have to take classes. In short, I got into a long term expensive project. I have spent about $1000 this summer on the buffing, polishing and melting torches. The wax investment and kiln will be about $2500 more. Then I can make anything I want.

The original dies I wanted to cast at the local University where I was taking casting classes. This was refused by the lab staff as "it had to do with open mold casting which was sacred to [a local tribe] and 'they' did not want to offend anyone". I pointed out that this method went all the way back to the Early Bronze Age, but this was ignored. I think the real problem was that what I wanted to was Roman (non-PC) and military (absolutely forbidden non-PC). Also, the work had to be original, Post-Modernist, and reproductions were were not. I wish I was joking about this but I am not. This is an Art Department at an American University, Remember.

For Experimental Archeology in particular Roman and Greek studies, this University imposed limitation is a bit of a disappointment. This means I cannot experiment with methodologies that give insight into how original pieces may be made. Case in point: I think I know why there are rings on the back of some apron studs, as a process of one of several ways to cast them. I was told this would have to be done at the Anthropogy or History Department, who in turn sent me back to the Art Department. So I will have to wait for more equipment, as I can afford it.

The learning experience has been a real learning experience.

Gaius Decius Aquilius
(Ralph Izard)