Gallic cavalry. . or German or any western cav. . help!

[Severus]

Fellow historians,


Could anyone point me to a site that has some detailed information on Gallic cavalry. What different types did they rely on? From what little I know (or think I do) Some nobles rode horses but that's about it. What weapons or tactics did they employ.

Secondly, my understanding of western (not Parthian) cavalry was that it could do little against an organized units of infantry head on. And was used mainly to reconnoiter, harass the enemy, engage the enemy cavalry, chase down broken or routing troops, and also could attack vulnerable flanks or rears of infantry blocks. Was this it? Could any one expand on or correct my thoughts?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Matt Webster

P.S. - I searched the site for info and found interesting photos of reenactors of the Ambianes (I think) tribe. the pictures were spectacular but the text was in French

[Robert Vermaat]

Secondly, my understanding of western (not Parthian) cavalry was that it could do little against an organized units of infantry head on. And was used mainly to reconnoiter, harass the enemy, engage the enemy cavalry, chase down broken or routing troops, and also could attack vulnerable flanks or rears of infantry blocks. Was this it?

I think that's it, yes. Even heavy cavalry can't simply ride through infantry head-on, so the role of unarmoured cavalry must be the possibilities already mentioned by you.

[Severus]

I think that's it, yes. Even heavy cavalry can't simply ride through infantry head-on, so the role of unarmoured cavalry must be the possibilities already mentioned by you.

OK. one confirmation of my thoughts. Anyone know more about western types of cavalry. Gauls? Celt-Iberians? Dacians (did they use cavalry?) Greek cav?

I am particularly interested in the Germans use of interspersed infantry amongst their horsemen. . .

Any tribes that rode their horses to the fight and then dismounted to fight on foot?


I look forward to the discussion


Matt Webster

[S SEVERUS]

The Britons who used chariots used these chariots to move their noble warriors to the battle field where they fought on foot not far away from the chariots. If the fight didn't go well for them they got back to their chariots and moved away. I think that Caesar mentioned this.

About German and Gallic cavalry I think that the German cavalry had the upper hand at Alesia. But I don't know what the reason was of this and if this was always the case.

Celtiberian cavalry was used by Hannibal.

I think, really heavy cavalry, didn't exist at that time because they didn't use stirrups. Maybe reading a good book about cavalry tactics can help you a lot.

Warhorse
Cavalry in the Ancient World
Sidnell, Philip
ISBN: 1852853743
Hardback
Continuum International Publishing Group Ltd.
Not Yet Printed

Cavalry
Its History and Tactics
Noland, Louis Edward
ISBN: 1594160317
Edition New ed
Hardback

Tactics and the Experience of Battle in the Age of Napoleon
Muir, Rory
ISBN: 0300082703
Edition New ed
Paperback
Yale University Press

[Jeroen Pelgrom]

i think clibanarii classifies as heavy cavalry.

IIRC Dacians used Sarmatian cavalry.

i think details of german & celtic cavalry are limited as the most sources we have are Roman. IMO the use of cavalry against disiplined infantry is not a good idea.

[Robert]

Are the Batavians worth discussing in this thread? They are well mentioned in several accounts of cavalry use, their feats of achievement as horsemen documented as being able to ford rivers in full kit (and rather bold on the offensive, reading the tale of Chariovalda, first Batavian mentioned by name, only to be ambushed and killed during a rather unwise dash across the river). The Batavians were a Germanic tribe from around Trier, relocated to the Limes of Germania Inferior, revolting in the Year of the Four Emperors under Claudius Civilis, who made peace only after flattening most of the castella along the Limes in 69 AD. It is unlikely they only took up horse-riding after the Romans came along and they are describes as fighting mounted, as far as I have gathered. This would point to other tribes, not affiliated to Rome, doing the same.

[Severus]

Are the Batavians worth discussing in this thread? They are well mentioned in several accounts of cavalry use, their feats of achievement as horsemen documented as being able to ford rivers in full kit (and rather bold on the offensive, reading the tale of Chariovalda, first Batavian mentioned by name, only to be ambushed and killed during a rather unwise dash across the river). The Batavians were a Germanic tribe from around Trier, relocated to the Limes of Germania Inferior, revolting in the Year of the Four Emperors under Claudius Civilis, who made peace only after flattening most of the castella along the Limes in 69 AD. It is unlikely they only took up horse-riding after the Romans came along and they are describes as fighting mounted, as far as I have gathered. This would point to other tribes, not affiliated to Rome, doing the same.

I would appreciate any info on their fighting style while mounted. I was beginning to think this thread was dead. . . Please share what you know, it sounds interesting. . .

Matt Webster

[Robert]

This copy of the Roman text describes Chariovalda dashing across the river, being lured into an extended position and being ambushed by footsoldiers. They formed into a carre, but where pressed from all sides. After putting up a good fight, he fell only after recieving multiple injury and having his horse cut from under him (liberal translation).

2.11.3. Chariovalda diu sustentata hostium saevitia, hortatus suos ut ingruentis catervas globo perfringerent, atque ipse densissimos inrumpens, congestis telis et suffosso equo labitur, ac multi nobilium circa: ceteros vis sua aut equites cum Stertinio Aemilioque subvenientes periculo exemere.

Then there is the type of spear used by cavalry, a stabbing spear used in an overhand fashion to be able to pull the spear out as one rode past the stricken enemy and the lenght of the spatha, only realy practical when used for hacking.

I'll try to dig up some more accounts, but hope this is something to ponder on.

[Robert]

www.livius.org contains a good translation of the battle at Alesia, describing the fighting style of the Germanic but also of the Gallic cavalary. This also points to a mounted engagement. I'm pretty confident both side fought mounted, there is mention of an oath taken for "riding through the formation twice or not returning home".

We are talking early Romans here, the use of cavalry fighting mounted was not a Roman invention, but rather a use of a way of fighting already in use by some native tribes.

[Treveri Gaul]

Hello.

Im Stev Vallus. My familyname was giv from Treveri tribe. Sorry I not perfeckt English. Germani language better.Very interested the Treveri cavalry, technik tactics and all information. Help me please.

Respeckt.

Greeting from Hungary


ps: Gallic reise Again

[Robert]

Salve Stev!

Glad to see you joining. Perhaps these people can also help you out, they speak German AND are Treveri Primantiani:

www.hochwaldkelten.de/keltengruppe.htm

[Treveri Gaul]

Salve Robert.

Thanks. You have good idea, but I was write e-mail the Treveri Primantiani. 'I never had any reply.I trace my ancestry from the Treveri tribe. Vallus = gaul harvesting machine from Treveri. Julius Ceasar was write . " Treveri best cavalry in Roman Army " My first ancestor they fought well in Battle of Alesia. That sure. My ancestor come in Hungary, from Virton, Buzenol /Luxembourg / I now write a book this theme.

Alles hilfe ich bedanken. Dank u wel)))

[L C Cinna]

hmm here's something i posted over at onother forum. it's rather disorganized and short but maybe it helps>

It's a rather complicated thing and there are ongoing discussions about how cavalry charges work in real life. there are several misconceptions, people often get a wrong picture because of some stories and myths and it's hard to test it.


most ancient cultures used some kind of skrimishing tactics with their cav instead of a "medieval" style. read Josephus description of engagements between Roman cav and the Judaeans or Arrian's description for example. It's skrimishing with javelins and then engaging with swords or stuff like that, chasing fleeing or broken units.

Not too sure about the actual charge. the cavalry might actually engage at rather slow speed instead of a heavy charge.Modern experiments and texts from Napoleonic times (the closest sources we still have on the actual use of cavalry) show that it's close to impossible to get even a trained horse to run into a mass of people, besides that you don't want to lose a trained horse and resupplyment in the field might be very difficult.

Note that this tactic of the slow advance and mellee engagement instead of full charges has NOTHING to do with the stirrups myth. You don't need stirrups to fight on horseback or to charge. they are only helpful for horsearchers. The saddle is the important feature in ancient and medieval warfare. Considering that the Macedonian cavalry didn't use saddles you can actually exclude the possibility of a real charge. They proably used to get into close range fast and then used to advance slowly wearing the enemy down with their long lances. To counter something like that is hard enough for an infantryman. I don't think Alexander's cavalry was able to perform something coming close to what usually is understood as a charge.

The Roman and Parthian cavalry (talking about around 100bce onwards) performed much better and where able to outperform any other cavalry because of the horned saddles they used. These saddles are not as strong in the back as medieval saddles were but they allow to charge cavalry and fight mellee with swords or spears very well. Note that it's the same for medieval warfare, the saddle is the important thing, you don't even use the stirrups for the charge.
Still as I said above, you can't force a horse to run into a group of people.

[Robert]

From what I have learned, cavalry was most often used to flank infantry, using the swiftness and endurance of the horse to gain a position on one of the sides of a drawn up army. Thus, the cavalry were faced with a long line of men, strung out three to five deep over the field. They did NOT charge into the massed infantry (as often depicted in the medieval charges in movies like Braveheart, where the heavy horse charging was impaled on a wall of long wooden spears, using the horse as a tank, and I agree this is not something you get a horse to do easily, it takes a lot of training to get them to approach and jump a hedge!), but caused them to break solid formation by getting behind and to their sides, creating disturbance and havoc. This greatly helped their own infantry advancing on the enemy lines. Once broken and scattered by an infantry assault, again the speed of the horse was used to ride through the shattered formation and cut down the fleeing enemy in passing. Not a pretty picture, but an effective one to be sure. All of this was done mounted, and having seen demonstrations of horsemen performing in Roman saddles, I have no doubt as to the stability of riding without stirrups, they hacked through melons and threw spears just fine and with good accuracy :lol:

[hoplite14gr]

For Greek Cavalry please see here
Greek hosrses
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=10339

Kind regards