Primus Pilus

[SOCL]

I've always equated centurions to being rather like warrant officers in the U.S. Army as they begin and have some duties of both enlisted and commissioned officers, but also, especially in the higher grades, carrying the same sort of prestige as field grade officers. A good, though humorous example of this is the fact that CW3s and Captains share the same parking spaces on certain bases (such as Fort Campbell and Benning), CW4s and Majors/Lieutenant Colonels, and CW5 and Colonels. Perhaps this is a bad example, but consider.

A Primus Pilus has the same sort of extended experience of a Sergeant Major, but carries the responsibilites of a captain (company command) and a lieutenant colonel (battalion command), while at the same time has the sort of prestige in grade and time which can only be properly attributed to a "full-bird" colonel. It's the same way the Camp Prefect carries the same sort of prestige of grade and time as a general officer, but carries responsibilites that are normally attributed a Command Sergeant Major and also those duties attributed to senior staff officers on a General's Staff.

[petrinus]

oh i was inferring he seems to after considering all said, function in a variety of ways and functions from a ISG who is in the right unit in the field a good bit, a CPT also in the field a good bit, atleast several ive worked closely with, and a COL as someone suggested but im thinking more like a capt maybe COL status in contrast however.....but functioning more as a modern (most) 1LT/xo as in he has definite field command of his group, platoon leader type, but again elevated status and im sure more involved duties especially as i understand it a primus pilus could move onto horse rank? i read it somewhere i know i did, though by no means do i speak it as gospel

[petrinus]

so the more i review this.....im going with 1LT/CPT ish qualities with a lil more status like unto a COL? frustrating trying to make modern sense of it

[petrinus]

the warrant officer bit was insightful, though i must say unless your dealing with a 4 or 5, the real status isnt there, good offering none the less, i like it best and had initialy overlooked it having no historical frame of reference but alas it seems there is one!!!!!

[SOCL]

the warrant officer bit was insightful, though i must say unless your dealing with a 4 or 5, the real status isnt there, good offering none the less, i like it best and had initialy overlooked it having no historical frame of reference but alas it seems there is one!!!!!

Well, I certainly didn't mean it to be a "solve all" of any sort, but simply a way of understanding the interesting combination of both enlisted duties and experience with officer responsibilities and pretige that are combined in the centurion ranks/grades. I suppose the greatest reason it seems difficult to understand centurion ranks in modern terms is that, and please correct if I'm wrong, centurions rose to be officers from being regular recruits, unlike most modern armies wherein officers are university-graduates who enter at the bottom end of the officer cadre, but are above even the top end of the enlisted personnel. In this sense, because of the lack of experience most, though certainly not all lieutenants have, I do not believe comparing centurions with lieutenants as adequate, though in the way of duties, then it does fit, but only in the way of duties.

[Gaius_Calvus]

I don't like the Warrant Officer comparison in Saul's post. While senior grade warrant officers in the US Army do enjoy a certain amount of prestige, this is based on seniority (time in service) and TECHNICAL expertise -- not exercise of command responsibility.

Warrant officers are great Soldiers -- and contribute their immense technical talents (aviation/pilot skills, maintenance, etc) -- but they DO NOT COMMAND.

So to me, comparing a centurio to a US Army warrant officer is a false analogy, since US Army warrant officers never assume the responsibility of command, while this was inherent in the duties of a centurio.

Don't confuse "prestige" with responsibility. A brand new 2LT Platoon Leader in the US Army carries more direct responsibility than the most senior warrant officer or NCO -- although he does well to heed their advice. The ultimate blame or accolade for success or failure cannot be shifted.

Calvus

[Quadratus]

I am by no means a specialist, but it seems to me that the idea of neat one-to-one relationships between job and rank is a fairly modern one and rarely achieved in practice.

I am thinking particularly of the British Royal Navy where 'Warrant Officers of Wardroom Status' survived into the late 19th century. These included not only non-combatants like the Schoolmaster, Surgeon and Chaplain, but the Master (originally Ship Master, later Sailing Master) and the Gunner, whose rank eventually evolved into the commissioned Gunnery Officer, but started life as a warrant rank.

These people were, in modern terms, heads of department and commanded everyone, including commissioned officers within those departments, although ranking below, or at least, separately from them, and being in general promoted from the ranks. The true place of the of the Masters in the pecking order was such that, when they were finally absorbed into the commissioned ranks, most became Commanders, some Captains ('full bird colonel' equivalent) and the most senior Captains with 6 years seniority – equivalent to a Brigadier/1-star general in modern terms.

There was also the situation of Viceroy's Commissioned Officers (VCO's) in the Indian Army, before independence. These ranked below all King's or Queen's Commissioned Officers, but in practice, frequently commanded them – even if they did say 'please'. These too were frequently promoted rankers.

So, while neither of these examples is identical to the position of the centurionate, they do suggest that in a society where there are fairly rigid distinctions based on birth interacting with a military system which must be, at least in practice, meritocratic (don't laugh all you military people out there!) there is likely to be a degree of rank/job/status confusion. The young gentlemen have high social status, but know s*d all, while the grizzled rankers and trained specialists have lower social status but are essential to get the job done.

[Tarbicus]

There used to be a gameshow on TV here, where army regiments had to complete a number of tasks (cross ravines, blow up tanks, etc), all with scores and in competition with each other. It used to amuse the hell out of me when a simple squaddie was shouting at his senior officer (in a controlled kind of way) "Hurry the *bleeep* up, Sir!", "Come on, get your *bleeep* into gear....Sir!", "*Bleeep* me, Sir, you're doing it all *bleeeeep* wrong, Sir! Point it that way!!!!"

[Gaius_Calvus]

For my money, Quadratus has it right.

As a fellow Patrick O'Brien fan, his analogy to the warrants in the age of sail is very apt. Certainly agrees with my mental image.

Calvus

[john m roberts]

I prefer "First Spear" because it sounds cooler.

[Dan Diffendale]

I prefer "First Spear" because it sounds cooler.

But it means "First File."

[Praefectusclassis]

Quote:
I prefer "First Spear" because it sounds cooler.

But it means "First File."

It's wrong, it's wrong I tell ya! :lol:

[SOCL]

I certainly didn't mean that a warrant officer the same thing as a centurion, and as I acknowledged, there are significant differences, especially, as Edge put, that they do not command in the same manner centurions did. I merely used Warrant Officers as an example of a style of rank and grade between enlisted grades and commissioned officers. I do certainly agree that a 2LT has more responsibility than a warrant officer, but I chose warrant officer as a comparison because of time and experience, but the similarities end there. That's why I said that a centurion has a mix of enlisted and officer characteristics: senior enlisted personnel in regard to time and experience, officer in regard to prestige and responsibility, namely command. Again, I didn't mean for the warrant officer comparison to be an absolute.

[Gaius_Calvus]

Saul,

Roger all -- I understand the comparison you are trying to make, but this quote from your most recent post:

"they do not command in the same manner centurions did."

Is still inaccurate. Modern US Army warrants do not command at all. Period. Your posting implies that modern US warrants exercise some form of command.

So, while (yes) a warrant officer is a series of grades nested between enlisted Soldiers and commissioned officers, the huge gulf between them and a Roman centurio is that the centuriones actually commanded units, whereas modern US warrants do not.

That's all I was trying to make clear.

Vale

Calvus

[Tarbicus]

Given that in the field a Primus Pilus Prior / Primipilus would be responsible for the Eagle of the whole legion (and it don't come more serious than that), I'd have thought Colonel, if there must be a comparison, could be more suitable, especially if he was responsible for the day to day running of the whole legion in the field, therefore must having had authority of some kind over the whole legion?