Primus Pilus

[SOCL]

Saul,

Roger all -- I understand the comparison you are trying to make, but this quote from your most recent post:

"they do not command in the same manner centurions did."

Is still inaccurate. Modern US Army warrants do not command at all. Period. Your posting implies that modern US warrants exercise some form of command.

So, while (yes) a warrant officer is a series of grades nested between enlisted Soldiers and commissioned officers, the huge gulf between them and a Roman centurio is that the centuriones actually commanded units, whereas modern US warrants do not.

That's all I was trying to make clear.

Vale

Calvus

I see, I see. You are absolutely correct. That was my fault in not being clear. I was, actually, under the impression that under certain circumstances in the way the Army is moving now, warrants were being given more and more responsibilities akin to commissioned officers. You would certainly know better than I and I appreciate the info!

[Matthew Amt]

I prefer "First Spear" because it sounds cooler.

It's kind of like saying that a "leader" is called that because of what his bullets are made out of. "Lead" and "lead" may look the same, but sound different a mean very different things. "Pilum" is a javelin (not a spear, even), while "pilus" is a completely different word meaning "file". The Romans wouldn't have confused the two, and we should, uh, follow their lead!

(Not trying to beat on you specifically, John!)

Not all centurions rose from the ranks. Many were directly appointed from the equestrian class by provincial governors. (At least one modern author believes that *most* centurions were direct appointments, but I don't recall how he comes to that conclusion.) The impression I got was that the ones who rose from the ranks spent years slowly climbing through the hierarchy, moving up through centuries and cohorts, but rarely reaching the top. It was the appointed centurions who were more likely to be "fast-tracked", skipping along the upper ranks of each cohort much more quickly, and being more likely to reach primus pilus. Then they'd retire after a lot less than 20 years. But again, I'm not sure what evidence there is to back this up.

Valete,

Matthew

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Principal evidence for that is epigraphy and the study of the equestrian order.

Interesting bibliography about that is :

J. KOLENDO, "La perception et l'appréciation d'un status social. Le cas des Primi Pili" in La mobilité sociale dans le monde romain, Strasbourg 1992, 166

S. DEMOUGUIN, "La promotion dans l'ordre équestre: le cas des serviteurs imperériaux" in La mobilité sociale dans le monde romain, Strasbourg 1992, 118

These autors say that from the second half of the 2nd century is generalized the access for centurion primus pilus " ex-equite ", that is directly for the members of the ordo equester.

[Tarbicus]

Whoops.

[SOCL]

Interesting material. If indeed members of the equestrian order/class were appointed to be centurions (rather how young patrichians worked as Tribunes for the sake of military experience), then this seems to be rather the same way most officers in the U.S. Army start as lieutenants and work there way up--officers from the start.

On a related question, would a highly experienced optio eventually be promoted to centurio, or was it not quite so ladder-structured?

[A_Volpe]

I think trying to compare Roman ranks to modern ranks just gets too confusing...It's like asking that tunic color question.

If it does work for you in terms of comparison and clarification, that's fine by me, but the Roman ranking "system" is it's own unique structure, so why try to muddle it down by trying to compare it...Esspecially when it comes to explaining all of this to Joe Public, who may have NO idea how our modern rank system works, nevermind trying to compare that to Roman system, with translating all the terminology as well. (and in that regard, the complexity and terminology of the Roman system is still pretty darn confusing, which IS similarly confusing to the [US] system!)

[john m roberts]

But "first file" just doesn't sound cool.

[Dan Diffendale]

But "first file" just doesn't sound cool.

How about "First Pilus"? :wink:

[Tarbicus]

First Soldier?

(Head Honcho, Big Cheese...)

[Kate Gilliver]

Do you need to translate it? I agree with those on the thread who have suggested that it's pointless to try to equate Roman army ranks with ranks in modern armies. So why try to translate Roman army ranks? What's wrong with primus pilus? It's going to be important / interesting to some where the name comes from and what it means literally; but I doubt most people would find primus pilus any less meaningful or confusing than first spear, file, javelin... take your pick!!!

The rank can be explained - the senior centurion in the legion - but do you need to go further than that?

[Caius Fabius]

It just doesn't work to try and compare modern ranks to Roman military ranks, and promotions / progressions. One of many reasons I detest Dando-Collins attempts to pretty up history in his "Roman Legions Histories" series. (That and the poor history)

You can see better but not accurate comparisons between the early French Imperial Army of the late 1790's and the ancient Roman officers, but again, they are not the same.

Plus, of course, the progressions of promotion change significantly through the history of the Roman Empire....

I find it easier to explain the structure of the Roman army at a known point in time (usually conjectural) and equate the various Roman ranks to that army, rather than trying to match them to a modern military rank and TO&E structure.

I remember long ago being a 2nd Lieutenant and being faced with having to give 'orders' to senior NCO's and CW3s who had decades of experience but was not in the 'chain of command'. A very interesting study would be to actually trace and prove the Roman Chain of Command in the Legion.

There is a lot of speculation, but not much proof how the actual orders were transmitted and who had the right to command what? Did the Prime Pilus have the right to command any century or a legion, or was he only able to give the commander a suggestion? (Much like senior NCO's today in the US Army.)

[Quintius Clavus]

Kate and Andy make the most sense. I, too, find it much better to treat the Roman Army and it's rank structure as unique to it. In the past, long past, I engaged in a discussion with a friend, who was trying to compare ranks in the armies of the American Civil War with Roman military ranks of the Principate. There were some loose comparisons, but only very loose.
The rank of "centurio" has to be modified by the relative position in the century, the cohort and the legion. For an example, my rank as optio in my legion in Latin (Thanks again for Jasper's help with the Latin!): Optio Secundae Pili Prioris Legionis III Cyrenaicae. I am the Optio in the first century of the second cohort in Legio III Cyrenaica.
Gregory Daly in "Cannae" spends a chapter discussion the each side's military organization and command structure. He cites Polybius, Livy, etc wherever there is a clear reference (such as in describing the role of the "optio"). Daly does state that the "centurio prior" - the first centurion of the mid-Republican legion - had a place at the army's war council. This is the officer who became known as the Primus Pilus of Caesar's time and in the Principate.
Regarding "Pilus": I happened to look up the word via an online Latin Dictionary and their definition was "Single Hair". Which then led me to the thought that the word may have like our modern word "file" come to be used for more than one thing, yet carries a visual similarity. Think about it, a single hair, a single file of men(standing in a single line behind the leader), the tools we call files, etc. Items which are long and thin/narrow. It further leads to a thought/theory -mine - that "pilum" may be a name derived from "pilus" by the Romans (or the Samnites, or whomever else might have come up with the name) for the tall, thin, hair-like javelin. It's just a thought,...
Interestingly enough, I sometimes go at the rank structure of the Roman army (those centurion and below) by discussing pay rates. This is the 1 and 1/2 times, 2 times, 5 times, etc. the base pay of an ordinary ranker soldier. Again, we don't have the full picture, but, it provides a simple heirarchical model. It is a comparison modern people in or out of the military can understand.

Quinton Johansen
Marcus Quintius Clavus, Optio Secundae Pili Prioris Legionis III Cyrenaicae