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Don\'t believe the hype: Temple treasure
#16
Since he probably did not know any source from Israel BC when the thing was made, or a description from this item when it was captured, he may very well have identified an object that was 'known as' the Table.

I mean, Europe was full of holy items, there may have been more than one of these objects around, with many people being very sincere about them.

Or what the heck - maybe the thing was sold to the Goths by the Vandals?
Robert Vermaat
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FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
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#17
Just FYI - I just checked. Neither Egeria or Arculfus mentions anything about the Temple Treasures. If they were in Jerusalem just prior to the invasion of Khosroe II in 614, it seems highly unlikely that these two pilgrims would have excluded any mention of it.

They do however mention the golgotha chapel, the lance, the true shards of the cross, etc, etc, etc.

Travis
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#18
Quote:Just FYI - I just checked. Neither Egeria or Arculfus mentions anything about the Temple Treasures.
Which brings us back to the Wagenaar book again - he made the same point. And this brings us back to the original point: why does a doctor claim to be the first who has written about a subject, if it has already been covered?

As to Robert's remark about fake antiquities: that's always a possibility.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
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#19
Quote:
tlclark:32w1i51y Wrote:Just FYI - I just checked. Neither Egeria or Arculfus mentions anything about the Temple Treasures.
Which brings us back to the Wagenaar book again - he made the same point.

What did he have to say about it?

Also, about fake antiquities, there is also misidentification, which is not quite the same as fraud.

Besides, every Byzantist knows that the ark is in Axum, Ethiopia. :wink:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... html#where
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#20
Quote:
Jona Lendering:3tzwyxiy Wrote:
tlclark:3tzwyxiy Wrote:Just FYI - I just checked. Neither Egeria or Arculfus mentions anything about the Temple Treasures.
Which brings us back to the Wagenaar book again - he made the same point.
What did he have to say about it?
Wagenaar put all evidence from ancient sources together in a book on Judaism in the city of Rome. See the very first posting. It is a very good book, used to be popular in the 1970's and early 1980's. And now there is this man who claims that he has for the first time found it all out. It smells of plagiarism, although I immediately add that I have only read the press release. Still, a person who allows himself to be quoted as “I am the first person to prove that the Temple treasures no longer languish in Romeâ€
Jona Lendering
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#21
Quote:Also, about fake antiquities, there is also misidentification, which is not quite the same as fraud.
Ah, but I never said that. Most truly believed that 'their' object was real, and was some link to God. But it's also known that there were enough splinters of the True Cross about that, put together, you could have built Noah's Ark out of them!

The Spear of Destiny is one object I would compare to the 'Table' - all involved quite believed it was the spear that pierced Christ's side, yet we know know it can't have been.
A fraud? No, I don't think so. A misidentified object? Most probably.

I therefore have some doubt that the Temple Treasure survived all those centuries in a Roman vault! What other treasures of their conquests did the Romans save? Or were some objects misidentified by later authors?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#22
Quote:I therefore have some doubt that the Temple Treasure survived all those centuries in a Roman vault! What other treasures of their conquests did the Romans save? Or were some objects misidentified by later authors?
Quite a lot, actually, and they knew what it was. For example, in the Portico of Octavia, they kept the statues of the soldiers that had died at the Granicus battle, and the poles of the tent of Alexander were at the Regia. Paintings were in the Temple of Concord. It's all summed up in a book by one Jona Lendering, called Stad in Marmer. :wink:
Jona Lendering
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#23
Well if they mistake Marcus Aurelius for Constantine, anything's possible.
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#24
I think not with the Menorah, because it is shown on the Arch of Titus and described in the book of Exodus. Monks and priests must have known what it was. The Table and the Trumpets are indeed another story.
Jona Lendering
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#25
Assuming that there was only one ever made and no copies. Given that the basic shape of it is so well known, any number of copies could have been made. The menorah was the chief symbol of judaism in the ancient world. Would one wealthy synagogue not been above making one?

Travis
Theodoros of Smyrna (Byzantine name)
aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

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#26
Good point; it is interesting to note that the other Roman representation of the Menorah (from the Geniza of Ostia) has a completely different lower part:
[Image: menorah.JPG]
[Image: menorah_titus.jpg]
Jona Lendering
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#27
Here's a brief follow-up on the discussion above: a piece on the Menorah
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
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