Legio III Italica pars inferior, Castra Regina, 5th Century

[Restitvtvs]

Dan: Excellent! Thx. Another laud for you. +r

[Robert Vermaat]

So maybe "upper regions" refers to the upper regions of LEG III ITAL's area of responsibility?

Yes, I think so, in the sense that in that case the Tertiani were responsible for the defence of the Alpine passes.

[Restitvtvs]

Well, 'Vallato' ought to be ablative, right, so it should be a place called Vallatum.

From Hazlitt's Classical Gazetteer (available here), we have:

Vallatum, a town of the Catenates, in Vindelicia (the northern portion of Rhaetia), apparently to be identified with modern Manching -- see it in the SE corner here (distinct from the Vallato in Italy -- vallatum just means "walled (place)" so it's not surprising to see it cropping up in more than one place).

P.S. I vaguely recall from 1970s & 1980s German topographic maps that the Raetian Limes or "Devil's Wall" (Tuefelsmauer) were sometimes labeled "vallum". The empire's border was moved south, to the south bank of the Danube River during the late 3rd through about the mid-5th centuries, but it was still called the "wall", and LEG III ITAL subunits (& detachments from other parts of the empire) still guarded the "wall" as well as the Danubian River crossings & Alpine passes. +r

[Restitvtvs]

...William, there seems no proof that units of III Italica held Regensburg until it ceased to be Roman. The legionary fortress seems to have been held by federates from Böhmen, they formed part of the nucleus of the first Bavarians. But I'll read up on that a bit more.

Robert: Yes, my readings of Regensburg's history indicates that the fortress was becoming increasingly civilian during the 4th & 5th centuries. Castra Regina became the capital of Bavaria by the 8th century, indicating that although the community population had declined somewhat from earlier centuries, that it was nevertheless still very prominent in Bavaria (Munich & Nürnberg were founded at least 300 years later). +r

[Flavius Promotus]

Ok guys, this is going to be a pretty long post - sorry :lol:

Yes, I would very much like to edit LEG III ITAL when you or Robert tell me to start. Of course, you have final say on the finished product.

I have no objections!

I want to use the title that would be most accurate for the unit that was based in/near Castra Regina (hopefully that was not one of the supply units... ) during the early 5th century.
Do you know the name of the unit that was based in/near Castra Regina during that period?

Ok, we are dealing here with a big problem for ancient historians in Bavaria: nobody knows exactly, what kind of troops were stationed at Regensburg in the early 5th century.
According to the Notitia, a part of Leg III Italica was still at Regensburg until it was transferred at an unknown date to Vallatum -

Not. Dig., occ. 35, 17: Praefectus legionis tertiae Italicae partis superioris, Castra Regina, nunc Uallato.

A rough translation means: Prefect of the upper part (?) of the Third Italic Legion, Regensburg, now 'Walltown'.

However, there are several problems:

1.) was the entire detachment moved to Vallatum, or just the HQ? (the former possibility sounds more convincing, but the latter is not impossible, either). If the entire detachment was moved to Vallatum, what happened to Regensburg? It is unlikely that the place was completely abandoned, as
A) there are traces of a continuity of settlement
B) the remnants of the fortress where still relatively in order in the 8th century (Regensburg became the capital of the first Bayuvarian dukes).
You don't give up such an installation easily!

There have been suggestions about foederati troops at Regensburg. Remnants of so called Friedenhain-Prestovice earthware hint at members of the same group of Germanic mercenarys who were garrisoned at Sorviodurum (Straubing), about 40 km southeast or Regensburg.

2.) partis superioris is probably an error for partis inferioris (lower part), since there already existed a pars superior of Leg III Italica at Summuntorium (Burghöfe) at the river Schmutter close to the Lech estuary north of the provincial capital Augusta Vindelicum (Augsburg).

Robert: superior/inferior distinctions are pretty frequent among the subunits of Danubian border legions. The are most likely a geographical distinction, as the partes superiores usually had positions upstream of the partes inferiores. (although there have been some debates and this theory is not 100% clear)
[I could list up a few examples if you want me to]

3.) Nobody knows for sure where Vallatum really was. Some say at Manching (because there have been and partially are still huge earthworks from the Celtic period.
However, the same goes for Weltenburg between Regensburg and Manching - huge earthworks which close off a 'peninsula' protected by the Danube. Only a small building from the Roman (?) period has been found there, yet (together with some late Roman artefacts), but if there were additional structures made from wood, they probably either left no tracers or haven't been discovered up to now.
Weltenburg (walled castle) 'Vallatumsburch' sounds etymologically more convincing. (provincial archaeologists at Bavaria are still discussing the Manching/Weltenburg problem, so nobodoy knows for sure).

Indeed, while the rest of the Tertiani (Italiciani) seem to be limitanei they are also listed as a legio comitatensis (ND Occ 5.53. Occ 7.53). I would not call them an elite legion among the comitatenses, which there seems no sign for.

Sorry Robert, I wanted to say that because this subunit was moved to the forces under the command of the Magister Militum as a comitatensian legion, it was an elite unit - not in comparison to other comitatensian units, but in comparison to the rest of III Italica, which had to stay at Raetia.

Northern Raetia is mostly lower and downriver from southern Raetia. Therefore, using the Roman geographic naming convention, would northern Raetia have been "Raetia inferior"?

The late Roman names for the now two Raetian provinces were Raetia prima and Raetia secunda. Prima was the southwestern part, while secunda comprised the area between the rivers Iller, Danube and Inn.

The 'superior' and 'inferior' provinces had disappeared by the time of the Notitia Dignitatum. The provinces along the Danube were now:

Raetia secunda, Noricum ripense, Pannonia prima (roughly the former superior), Valeria, Pannonia secunda, Moesia prima, Dacia ripensis (togethere more or less the area of the former Moesia superior), Moesia secunda and Scythia minor (together more or less the old Moesia inferior).

To sum up all this waffling - you could still call your unit
Legio III Italica pars inferior [more likely than superior], Castra Regina.
Since nobody knows for sure when the final additions were made to the Western Part of the Notitia Dignitatum (probably in the 420ies ???), you could argue that the unit still sits at Regensburg, but is soon going to move to Vallatum.

PS: excellent beer at Weltenburg (Vallatum?) nowadays. Do really want to go to Manching (Vallatum?)???

[Restitvtvs]

Robert: I'll start this weekend.

Thank you for good analysis & conclusions. Another laud for you.

I'll go with "Legio III Italica pars inferior, Castra Regina", early 5th century.

P.S. Yes, excellent beers @ Weltenburg Monastery, world's oldest monastic brewery. shock: :wink: :lol: Never been to Manching, couldn't say. Probably better than most places I go these days.

[Flavius Promotus]

Thank you for good analysis & conclusions. Another laud for you.

You are too kind :oops:

The Kelheim-Weltenburg ferry usually is >0.3 meters lower in the river during its return trips to Kelheim.

Speaking of the ferry and the river conditions in the Weltenburg gorge...
suppose Vallatum was indeed Weltenburg, then perhaps the decision to move the Regensburg subunit of LEG III ITAL to Weltenburg was also based on the idea that the troops good aid the river traffic there.

Just an idea caused by my obsession with ships and the Danube :wink:

[Robert Vermaat]

Ok guys, this is going to be a pretty long post - sorry :lol:

Not at all - very informative!

Ok, we are dealing here with a big problem for ancient historians in Bavaria: nobody knows exactly, what kind of troops were stationed at Regensburg in the early 5th century.
[..]
A) there are traces of a continuity of settlement
B) the remnants of the fortress where still relatively in order in the 8th century (Regensburg became the capital of the first Bavarian dukes).
You don't give up such an installation easily!

Well, exactly. Almost everywhere we find these installations they are either stripped of material or continuously occupied as an elite site. Since Regensburg continued to be occupied (as capital of the Bavarians no less) I see much in the opinion that Regensburg was indeed the nucleus of a future Bavaria. Maybe the Roman forces were pulled off later in the 5th century? maybe they continued in occupation, together with the first Bavarian federates? Continuation is the key here, I think - no deserted fort, occupied by wandering barbarians, is kept in order as the Regensburg fortress was.

There have been suggestions about foederati troops at Regensburg. Remnants of so called Friedenhain-Prestovice earthenware hint at members of the same group of Germanic mercenaries who were garrisoned at Sorviodurum (Straubing), about 40 km southeast or Regensburg.

I think they are the most likely group, intermingled with Romans.

Robert: superior/inferior distinctions are pretty frequent among the subunits of Danubian border legions. The are most likely a geographical distinction, as the partes superiores usually had positions upstream of the partes inferiores. (although there have been some debates and this theory is not 100% clear)
[I could list up a few examples if you want me to]

yes, that makes sense. Thanks for the offer, please do if you found them outside the ND.

Nobody knows for sure where Vallatum really was. [..]
Weltenburg (walled castle) 'Vallatumsburch' sounds etymologically more convincing. (provincial archaeologists at Bavaria are still discussing the Manching/Weltenburg problem, so nobodoy knows for sure).

Interestinly, I also have a Weltenburg close by. or rather, they might be one.. There's talk in Medieval sources of a Weltenburg/Wiltaburg, mentioned by Bede. Some say it is Utrecht (Traiectum), others see it as a later form of Vechten (Fectio), where the Fecta became wecta and the C was miswritten as an L. If not Utrecht or Veechten, the site is a mystery. However, the '-burg' part points to a walled structure. Fectio, the former Roman fort, is my main candidate. Back to the discussion: Manching could be a good candidate, since many Iron Age fortressesd were re-occupied in Late Roman times. Do you know if Manching was re-fortified?

Sorry Robert, I wanted to say that because this subunit was moved to the forces under the command of the Magister Militum as a comitatensian legion, it was an elite unit - not in comparison to other comitatensian units, but in comparison to the rest of III Italica, which had to stay at Raetia.

And that souns just fine.

[Flavius Promotus]

Manching could be a good candidate, since many Iron Age fortressesd were re-occupied in Late Roman times. Do you know if Manching was re-fortified?

According to H.J. Kellner (in: Die Römer in Bayern, reprint from 2005 (the original is from 1995), 474-475), a few late Roman finds are known from Manching, but intensive investigations (also fuelled by the hope of finding 'Vallatum') came to nothing. Archaeologists still suspect the existence of a late Roman military installation at Manching, but - as already stated - nothing has been found yet. On the other hand, I don't have any pieces of information available which are younger than about 6 years, so maybe they found something in the meantime?

Partes superiores and inferiores outside the Notitia? Argh!
Unless I forget this subject, I will take a look into the material on my desk, tomorrow.

Greets,
Florian

[Flavius Promotus]

Thanks for the offer, please do if you found them outside the ND.

Dear Robert,
I could find a few, but only a few in:

Dietz, K.H., 1993, Cohortes, ripae, pedaturae. Zur Entwicklung der Grenzlegionen in der Spätantike, in: K.H. Dietz, D. Hennig, H. Kaletsch (Eds.), Klassisches Altertum, Spätantike und frühes Christentum. Adolf Lippold zum 65. Geburtstag gewidmet, Würzburg, 279-329.
[the article is fiendishly complicated, so beware of mental luxations!]

LEG(ionis) IIII FL(aviae) PAR(s) SUP(erior) - tile stamp from Belgrade and Sremska MItrovica (cp. Dietz, 293).

LEG(ionis) VII CL(audiae) P(ars) S(uperior) - tile stamp from Banatska Palanka, Veliko Gradishte, Sremska Mitrovica, Kostolac (cp. Dietz, 294).

LEG(ionis) X G(eminae) P(ars) S(uperior) - tile stamp from Sremska Mitrovica?, Vienna (cp. Dietz, 296).

Strangely, the article doesn't mention any pieces of evidence for partes inferiores, but this may be coincidence. However, there are some examples for partes citeriores (sic!), which - according to my memory - do NOT show up in the ND.

Hope that helps

Florian

[Robert Vermaat]

Thanks Florian! That helped indeed.

[Flavius Promotus]

Nice to hear that :wink:

[Restitvtvs]

Since my health & other situations have improved enough, hopefully for years to come, I've revived my 5th century impression plans as the sole member of "Legio III Italica pars inferior", based in Castra Regina, early to mid 5th century. I'm motivated by personal interests, after living nearby for several years.

Although I may not be able to attend events in Europe for years to come, I would like my impressions to be historically accurate, as best possible, and complementary to Legio III Italica groups in Europe. I have their website links & contact information, and I plan to make first contacts after I have bought + made enough of my basic 5th century infantry kit. Woohoo!!!

Any word on completing the posting of Ritterling's "Legio III Italica" section? If needed, I still have enough time to help with any remaining work on that section.

Thanks! Pax vobiscvm, +r

[Robert Vermaat]

Since my health & other situations have improved enough, hopefully for years to come

That is VERY good to hear! Welcome back William!

[Restitvtvs]

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