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#16
Quote:but they also feel little passion and lack idealism.
But can't those same admirable values lead to some of the worst atrocity and horror ever seen, bearing in mind the last century? Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao were all certainly very passionate and idealistic about their causes.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#17
Quote:The Persian War could be analogous to the Russian Afghan war of the 1980s.
Indeed! Much better even, because the Afghans, like the Greek states, were not a unity either. Of course, the Persian Empire did not break up over the minor mishap of Thermopylae...
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#18
But it could be said that the Persian Empire's failure of subduing Greece was its ultimate downfall (even if Afghanistan didn't launch a subsequent invasion for 'revenge'). Wink
Michael D. Hafer [aka Mythos Ruler, aka eX | Vesper]
In peace men bury their fathers. In war men bury their sons.
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#19
Quote:But it could be said that the Persian Empire's failure of subduing Greece was its ultimate downfall.
I think that would be incorrect; in the first place, the Persian empire survived for almost a century and a half, and in the second place, during the Peloponnesian War, it recovered much of what was lost. During the fourth century, the Aegean states were heavily dependent upon Persia; at least seven times, the great king intervened and forced the "Yauna" to conclude peace treaties.

The ultimate cause for the downfall of Persia is the same as the ultimate cause for the downfall of Babylonia, the Seleucids and the Parthians - dynastic infighting. The succession of Artaxerxes III was very uneasy. Had it been more tranquil, Alexander would have encountered stronger resistance in Asia.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#20
Quote:So which conflict do you refer to? The War of Independence? One could argue that the Americans did not think of themselves as free, but still it's totally different from the outside invasion by the Persian Empire. Neither war was about slaves though.
If you are referring to the Civil War, that would be totally different. The slaves were unfree (although it can surely be argued that the Civil War was NOT
The War for Independence. Though The Persian wars can loosely compared to most wars for independence, I used the example of the American Revolution because both nations fought to "free" themselves of outside infulence and control and that "freedom" was only for those they deemed worthy. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused with this.
Valour is the strength, not of arms and legs,but of the heart and soul
-Lee
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#21
Quote:But it could be said that the Persian Empire's failure of subduing Greece was its ultimate downfall (even if Afghanistan didn't launch a subsequent invasion for 'revenge'). Wink
The Hellenes had to get very, very lucky to destroy the empire, and Alexander the Great was so desperate for Heraklean glory that I suspect he would have found a pretext for invading the empire even without the Persian War as a pretext. Sure, leaving Greece independant and Macedon as a substantial kingdom was the proximate cause of the fall of the empire, but an observer in say 400 BC couldn't have predicted that Hellenes would destroy the empire (although he might have guessed that Hellenes would carve off Anatolia at some low point in Persian fortunes). [I use Hellenes here as a blanket term for Greeks and neighboring peoples who largely adopted Greek culture]. We also don't know much about events in the eastern half of the empire and how much they contributed to Persian decline.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#22
That's very true. Who knows if the Indians or Sogdians or Scythians weren't nipping away at the Eastern edges of the Persian Empire. Are records pretty lean regarding these possibilities?

But really, my main point was the failed Greek expeditions lead to constant court intrigue at home in Persia and revolts in the satrapies, with Persian foreign policy increasingly consisting of the coin rather than the sword. Who, but the most astute foreign policy analysts, would have known at the outset of the Russian invasion of Afghanistan that it would become one of the seminal causes of the downfall of the Soviets Union?
Michael D. Hafer [aka Mythos Ruler, aka eX | Vesper]
In peace men bury their fathers. In war men bury their sons.
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#23
Quote: I doubt if Jesus could convince us to go to war with Iran( at this point anyway)

I doubt He'd try!
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#24
Quote: There was no thought in ancient Greece whatsoever about abolition of slavery.

I had heard that one Ancient Greek once said something like; "When the food cooks itself and the cup washes itself, then we will give up slaves."

Assuming someone did actually say or write it, it must have been in response to a thought about the abolition of slavery.
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#25
Greeks used two terms for "slaves".

Doulos = intenured servant, serf, person forced to do commuity service. Is is legaly a person with minimal rights but no civic rights. Could be trusted to bear arms. Some times could fight a psilos. Argive slaves defending the city walls after Kleonae defeat.
Records of paid slaves survive in the Lavrion silvermines!


Andrapodon = literaly "walking thing" corrsponds exactly to the modern definition of slave. Until the mid Peloponessian War it was not supposed to happen to Greeks but only "barbarians".

After that Romas took over and the distinction ceased.

Kind regards
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#26
Quote:
Vortigern Studies:215gj5j6 Wrote:There was no thought in ancient Greece whatsoever about abolition of slavery.
I had heard that one Ancient Greek once said something like; "When the food cooks itself and the cup washes itself, then we will give up slaves."
Assuming someone did actually say or write it, it must have been in response to a thought about the abolition of slavery.

Indeed.
I'll clarify my position a bit more. I don't think there was any thought in ancient Greece (or Rome) whatsoever about abolition of slavery on the grounds that human beings had an basic right to be free and could not be 'owned' by another human being.

Slavery was not uncomplicated. Slaves were seen as bother some too. Not to mention the neverending threats of war or debt wherein oneself could become enslaved. I dare to venture that the quote above was more in the line of that.

But to get back to my original remark, I think there were Greeks during the Roman period who also did memorable things - but the period was cut out of the history parade. Too bad.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#27
Quote:I doubt He'd try!
true,but who knows He could have been a crazy man lol
Valour is the strength, not of arms and legs,but of the heart and soul
-Lee
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#28
Sorry I missed this reply.


Quote: There was a book, which is referred to several times (a/o in the biblical books of Ezra-Nehemia and Esther). The point of Esther is that Ahasverus is unable to revert an earlier decision.

I don’t see much in Ester to change my opinion. The King simply issued new decrees that reversed early decisions, directly or formally invalidating the old decrees (that is stating the previous one was incorrect). Rather than rule of law I think we are mealy looking at a legal fiction designed to protect the concept of infallibility for a king and screen palace politics.

In particular Ester 8:7: All Xerxes says is he cannot revoke his old decree, he simply has Ester write a new decree that he will sign…

I don’t see that rivals the Athenian distinction between laws and decrees, nor any mechanism for appealing an illegal decree or legal loophole such as the one Xerxes uses for Ester, no court systems as it were.
Paul Klos

\'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird\'
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