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I didn't see the entire episode, but did I discern backpacks with bedrolls on some soldiers? :roll:
Panic did apparently break out in Rome when Caesar approached and even Caesarians fled the city. This is attested by Lucan, Plutarch, Appian, Dio and even Caesar himself.
There are some examples of Caesar's legions moaning and groaning. IIRC the Xth was involved, but the punishment was not decimation. I may have overlooked a similar occurence with the IXth however.
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Quote:The decimation of Legio IX (was that historical? The 1st c. BC is not my forte) was also never seen before.
Perhaps Kate could be persuaded to give us a sneak preview of her paper on "Decimation in the Roman army", billed for 24 October in Exeter?! :wink: :wink:
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Quote:I didn't see the entire episode, but did I discern backpacks with bedrolls on some soldiers? :roll:
Panic did apparently break out in Rome when Caesar approached and even Caesarians fled the city. This is attested by Lucan, Plutarch, Appian, Dio and even Caesar himself.
I did not notice bedroll but the soldiers always marched with the scutum in their hands, not on their backs.
So Rome really was almost deserted? That sure looked different in 'Rome'...
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There is a decimation of the IXth legion, at Placentia. Famously, and not surprisingly, it is not mentioned at all by Caesar, but is by Suetonius, Appian and Dio. The decimation was punishment for a mutiny probably relating to over-due discharges, and it's uncertain whether the whole legion was subjected to decimation or just the ringleaders. Appian and Dio both indicate that the lots were somehow rigged to ensure that those most guilty were put to death.
If you want more detail, you'll have to wait for the publication (whenever that is...)
As for mini-cheek pieces on helmets - a continual bug-bear, but you want to be able to see the actors' lovely faces don't you?! :wink:
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Hi Kate,
Thanks for the info.
Quote:As for mini-cheek pieces on helmets - a continual bug-bear, but you want to be able to see the actors' lovely faces don't you?! :wink:
Sure, but now those lovely faces look as if they squeezed into kids' helmets - ridiculous. :x roll:
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I like it alot. We have come along way in a short period of time from Gladiator. TV shows like Hannibal, ROME and this new BBC production are picking away at detail, using much more accurate representations of armour and costumes. Reaching up and down the timeline for interesting episodes. Let it continue! After all, Gladiator, though trumpeted, was a plain remake of THe Fall of Rome with Alec Guiness and Sophia Loren.
WE will get Intercisa's in the Constantine section, we are getting hamata with Caesar and bronze breastplates mixed with hamata in the Gracchi episode.
Lots of minor errors, but the idea that Rome is changing all the time, that it is not 'emperor + red rectangular scuta and segmentata' has got to be great!
Next week: the siege of Jerusalem
Hurray!!!!!!!
~ Paul Elliott
The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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Tiberius Gracchus - overall view - a disappointment, and such a pity after the BBC goes for something that isn't standard Roman fare. The background to Tiberius' tribunate was based largely on old-fashioned theories (including the tiresome old 'revenge for the Numantine affair' one) and an uncritical reading of primary sources whether they are sympathetic to Tiberius or not. There was no explanation that Tiberius was re-enacting existing legislation or suggestion that he had support from some powerful senators. The commentary over-did the idea that Rome was a highly democratic society. Ok, it's been a big topic of debate over the last 20 years or so, and many earlier works did underestimate the levels of democracy in the Republican state, but the implication that it was ever a fair and equal democracy is simply not true, elections and office-holding being so loaded in favour of the wealthy. Oh, and two very nice touches - his speech included some of the oratory reported in Plutarch's life; and I loved the scene of Scipio Aemilianus and his painting of the capture of Carthage - again reported in sources.
Anyway, this is RAT and not RPT (Roman political talk), thank goodness, so: grotty little cheek-pieces again; soldiers still looked too uniform all wearing their Montefortino helmets (which they'd presumably pillaged from last week's Caesar episode), and although too many were wearing identical pectorals, they were at least wearing pectorals and a couple I spotted with mail, so I guess that's not too bad. It did look a bit like a 2nd century BC army. But what was with ranks and ranks of onagers?
And finally, you don't get a gold crown for being the first up the wall (which Tiberius did, according to Fannius as reported by Plutarch), you get the mural crown.
It's a bit like Rome - a lot of effort into getting some stuff authentic, so why not go the whole hog and ensure it's all authentic?
Next week - the Jewish revolt and establishment of the Flavian dynasty. Hope we get some nice siege warfare.
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Quote:Next week - the Jewish revolt and establishment of the Flavian dynasty. Hope we get some nice siege warfare.
And it looks like the segs are .................. metal. Thumbs up already.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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Quote:Next week - the Jewish revolt and establishment of the Flavian dynasty. Hope we get some nice siege warfare.
Maybe they'll explain the Victoria Navalis coins minted by the Flavians. :wink:
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Kate Gilliver wrote:
Quote:Anyway, this is RAT and not RPT (Roman political talk), thank goodness, so: grotty little cheek-pieces again; soldiers still looked too uniform all wearing their Montefortino helmets (which they'd presumably pillaged from last week's Caesar episode), and although too many were wearing identical pectorals, they were at least wearing pectorals and a couple I spotted with mail, so I guess that's not too bad. It did look a bit like a 2nd century BC army. But what was with ranks and ranks of onagers?
Well the standard media response in such cases is that this is meant to be entertainment not a documentary......oops sorry this was a documentary!
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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Right, after last week's disappointment we get back on track with a pretty good narrative of the Jewish war, though apart from hints at corrupt governors, insufficient info about the background to the revolt. Nonetheless, it got across well the continuing importance of military success to ambitious senators even in the mid 1st century AD. I thought the timing was a little unbalanced, with the lead-up to the fighting a bit leisurely, (and I seem to remember that Cestius was retreating from Jerusalem when attacked at Beth Horon, not advancing as implied by the drama), Jotapata dealt with in much detail so that the year of the 4 emperors and the fall of Jerusalem was a little bit hurried.
On the whole the military side of things was pretty good. If only because the BBC had so little lorica seg and imperial gallic helmets, we had a great mixture of seg, mail armour, montefortino & imperial gallic helmets. At last a non-uniform legionary army - yippee! Pity that they didn't mix it up a bit so that some actors in seg had montefortino helmets and some in mail had imp gallic helmets, but OTOH one might argue that you've got legions coming from different provinces so the different legions might be differently equipped.
Great details of siege warfare - towers, circumvallation (though can we have some criticism of Josephus' unlikely claim that Titus circumvallated Jerusalem in 3 days?). I still don't like the over-abundance of fire-arrows in night scenes, but it was nowhere near as bad as Ridley Scott's films, and I accept that the audience have to see where the stuff is going. And at least they resisted the temptation to show the baby allegedly knocked out of its mother's womb by Roman artillery or the bloke whose head goes flying. I did note that the battering ram lacked an iron head, and just seemed to be a tree trunk which would not have been very effective or tough.
I really liked the use of the tortoise formation - the legionaries - were they actors of one of the living history groups? - had clearly practiced the manoeuvres and it looked smart and realistic. Again, much better than Gladiator which looked more artificial.
The side of Rome that is absolute brutality was got across very well too, both in Vespasian's advance into Gallilee and in the fall of Jerusalem, pillage of the temple and punishment of the rebels. Not surprising given that the historical advisor was Martin Goodman whose Roman World 44 BC - AD 180 in the Routledge series presents an equally dark picture of the Roman empire.
So, full marks to the BBC this week. Next week you late Roman enthusiasts will be able to take over the criticism as we move away from my period and onto Constantine.
Oh, and finally, as with the Cato / Marcellus problem with actors in the Caesar episode, how did the chief spy from Spooks end up being emperor of Rome?!
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Ancient Rome tonight - Siege of Jerusalem. Again, good stuff, a great story never before put on film - obviously to do it justice would need a 6 part mini-series (like HBO's ROME). Far more complicated, intriguing, amazing and shocking than you can get in a 60 minute drama. Bits that couldn't be squeezed in:
Like the centurion slipping up in the temple forecourt
Like the catapult taking someone's head off
Like the unit of legionaries crawling across a roof to get at rebels, and
the entire building collapses killing and maiming them
And lots of other amazing, startling scenes. I recommend Josephus' book to anyone interested even vaguely in Rome at war. Read about Romans getting cut to pieces all over the place, and about Jewish rebels fighting a bitter horrible civil war inside the city during the siege, killing their own
people, picking on the defenceless, about cannibalism and other horrors.
War in its primal, ugly, ultimate form.
Isn't history horrible.
Yes, next week - Constantine - hurray! That must be a first in TV/movie history. At last. Looks good, with mail and chi-rhos and oval shields and Intercisa style helmets, except for the curly haired actor they
have got to play him (have they not seen the coins or the York head?). I hear its a very unsympathetic view of the emperor.
I'm all for that.
~ Paul Elliott
The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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Peter Firth was a good choice for Vespasian, I thought this one was well made, and it was great to see the army depicted far better than any multi-million dollar Hollywood flick when on a shoestring budget. I even turned a blind eye to the Trooper helms and maxi-dress tunics.
Next week's Constantine is being played by one of Britain's best and most versatile actors, David Threlfall, aka Frank Gallagher from Shameless. 
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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To be honest, I really liked the night fights! And I also liked the battered dirty shields - though I did suspect that the strange way the legionaries were marching (with shields in front of them) was to hide a lack of good armour - or am I too cynical?
Of course, being a slinger - I loved the slings!
~ Paul Elliott
The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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Quote:So, full marks to the BBC this week. Next week you late Roman enthusiasts will be able to take over the criticism as we move away from my period and onto Constantine.
I agree with most points, though I found it all a but hurried-acted. Loved the attempts at real fighting, I wonder how that could look with a real budget? Yes, many styles or arms & armour, but was that intentionally or budget-induced? I already tremble for the Late Roman stuff next week, although I saw oval shields and Intercisa-like helmets..
But there were some minor points.
The Romans with with their "after all we did for you, you still rebel, you ungrateful lot" was downright sanctimonious, and seemed a bit like Monty Python's 'Life of Brian'... Yeah right, as if any of the claims jelled from that tower was true!
The BBC was changing history a lot of times. The'Jewish 'terrorist' was made a hero with his calls to fight for freedom (I keep hearing the bellowing of a painted Mel Gibson in my ear...), whereas these factions were hardly fighting for that. Also Josephus (why did they keep calling him that? Did he not have the non-Roman name of Joseph?) with his "I did my duty as a Jew" was a bit too nationalistic for my taste.
I kinda missed Masada, I had expected them to finish the siege of Jerusalem and switch to that more famous one.
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