Roman helmet with the mice on it

[Lepidina]

Hi all,

Is the helmet with the mice and bread/cheese on the back in the helmet database? If so, could someone tell me what number/designation it is? If not, could someone get me a picture of it? I think it was found in Germany.

Thanks in advance!!

[Matt Lukes]

Hi Deb,

Here are some great shots of it- the Italic I (Niedermörter): [url5ptguxz]http://www.legionsix.org/Real%20Gear%202.htm[/url]

Matt

[Praefectusclassis]

Thanks to the gracious permission of Flavius Crispus/Dave Michaels, those photos are in the database as well.

[Gaius Germanicus]

Lepidina; Thank you for posting this question , I did not realize that there was a helmet w/ a mouse and cheese on it.... Very Cool..


http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/sto ... talH-6.jpg

[Gaius Germanicus]

Link of close up of mouse and cheese from dadabase...

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/sto ... talH-4.jpg

[Peroni]

I did not realize that there was a helmet w/ a mouse and cheese on it.... Very Cool..

IMO It's not cheese, it's a loaf of bread.

Roman cheese never had the marked divisions, it was made in plain presses.

However, all the bread remains from Pompeii and Herulaneum did.

[Kate Gilliver]

I have to agree with Peroni that it looks like bread rather than cheese.

[Peroni]

Here's one the wife made earlier...


http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/sto ... talH-4.jpg

[Lepidina]

Roman cheese never had the marked divisions, it was made in plain presses. However, all the bread remains from Pompeii and Herulaneum did.

True, but if you are going to cut the cheese to distribute it as rations, you'd cut it like that.

The cheese interest is that I went to a cheese class and tasting last night on historical cheeses and we talked about ancient Roman cheese so I thought of the helmet. Interesting stuff.

[Gaius Germanicus]

Interesting mouse and cheese or mouse and bread? either would taste fine with a good Chianti - just kidding :lol:

Peroni yes indeed it does look like a loaf of bread and my family still makes it that way, but as Lepidina points out when a round of cheese is cut up it is typically done in the wedge fashion..

Does anyone know if the mouse/cheese , mouse/bread motif was found anywhere else in artifacts or Roman literature?

[Flavius Promotus]

Does anyone know if the mouse/cheese , mouse/bread motif was found anywhere else in artifacts or Roman literature?

Sorry, no
Somebody (I think Junkelmann in his book on Roman helmets) suggested the mouse on the 'Axel Guttmann Niedermoermter' to be a symbol of the chthonic and may have had an apotropaic function (= keeping bad luck away). But where do we place the cheese???
(the only connection I know of is the infantry unit mentioned in Terry Pratchett's 'Monstrous Regiment' - the 'cheesmongers' :lol: )

[Gaius Germanicus]

Florian ; Thank you for your reply and its too bad we'll never know , it could very well be a symbol to ward off bad luck ,etc ...

I assumed it might be related to some mythological story I was unfamiliar with or possibly even a type of regimental marking similar to what Bomber or U-Boat crews used to decorate their craft and uniforms with...

[Tarbicus]

Well, after experiencing an unwelcome little houseguest I can say hand on heart "Mice don't go for cheese." It took Hob-Nobs in the trap.

I think it's bread.

Mice hate cheese, new study reveals

Mice go for bread and cereals, and fruits. The myth that mice like cheese leads me to suspect that it's relatively modern, and the Romans didn't have that one. But, the mice would definitely go for bread, and given that the Romans would certainly be aware of this, with far more experience of the little critters than us, I reckon that's definitely a loaf on the helmet.

[Caballo]

Its definitely (IMHO) bread. Here is the charred remains of a loaf from Pompeii , with the baker's stamp still clearly visible.

Cheers

Caballo

[Tarbicus]

It even has exactly the same amount of slices.