Cavalry breaches

[Robert]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the advise. Mind you, I will not be the one on the horse!
Your observation on the responsibility of re-enactment is precisely the reason I will be questioning the museum Het Valkhof on their source of the reconstruction portrayed. Mind you, the are a VERY professional museum and have a truly magnificent collection, so I'm assuming they have not acted hastily on this topic. This was also a reason to put the post on RAT, to see what kind of feedback could be obtained on the feasibility.
Strictly from a commercial point of view, I would hope for wool, planning to field half a turmae on a daily basis, I shudder at the cost of all those buckskin breaches. But then again, we want to get it right, and if buckskin is proved, buckskin it will be.
Peroni, I have assumed buckskin to mean a different layer of the leather then normally used for clothing. Its the type of leather used to clean windows with ....

[Robert]

I think maybe I got the wording wrong. I think the leather my contact meant was chamois (sheep) or suede (bovine), she reffered to it as "buckskin", but reading up on leather on the site Peroni sent me a link to (thanks!), I believe this was wrongly translated. Het Valkhof used chamois, because she specificly mentioned "zeemleer"and that does not translate to suede, because we use that same word for the same kind of leather.

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Robert.

Thanks for the reply. One of the advantages of being on RAT is that it does give you access to information from across the world that you would not otherwise get to see or hear about. It is not possible to read every archaeological report yourself or visit every museum and keep up to date with every new archaeological discovery.

I have never heard of any discoveries of leather bracae from the Roman period. Which is not to say that they did not use them. It might just be that along with many others I have simply not found the report that they are in or heard of any discovery. Like everyone else, if the Valkhof Museum have a source for this information then I would be very pleased to hear of it. As you may know I have written a few books on military clothing and I am always looking for new evidence to include in future works.

Only the other day I came across something which could well be evidence for cotton bracae from Egypt but then again it could be something else entirely. Like everyone else I will have to wait until the report on that is published.

I would just not be in favour of going along the path that because modern people who have never ridden horses before find it uncomfortable that therefore the Roman cavalry must have done so as well.

In truth some of them might have done but they would have just had to have got on with it. I am reminded of a scene in the 1968 film 'Charge of the Light Brigade' which shows recruits learning to ride by repeatedly mounting wooden dummies and all the insides of their legs are covered in blood!

Graham.

[Robert]

Hi Graham,

It is not I arguing for greater comfort in the saddle, mind you. I just want to get it right! I will contact the museum shortly to check the source of their reconstruction and am totally open to all input, proving or disproving the hypothesis. From what I have gathered so far (but this is hearsay), the reconstruction was based on a very limited find (little material seems to have survived) and was questioned as such. More the reason to check with all you helpful people on RAT. It looks bleak at best for leather bracae so far ....

[M. Demetrius]

The cavalry "breeches" that I was mentioning were made of wool, all right, but the leather was sewn on the seat and inner thighs of them probably not for "comfort", but for making the cloth last longer when rubbed frequently against the leather saddle. There would still be wool on the inside, and as far as I know they wore wool underwear, "Long johns" or "Union suit, rather like a modern "jumpsuit". Don't know what they call those in Europe.

So skinwoolwoolleathersaddlewoolhorse

[Robert]

Hmm, sounds good to me, but then, anything keeping me As far away as possible from a horse back would. To the public, this would only show the wool, as the rider when not on his horse would have the leather covered by his tunic. I can see the advantage to wear and tear.
Is there any documentation of such use of leather from other riding cultures then the Romans around the same time or before?
I have requested the museum for the source, it would be interesting to see if cloth was found in association with the leather. The use described by David could perhaps account for the portional find (there never where full bracae to begin with) IF it could be tied in with cloth. This line of thought could lead to a re-interpretation of the conclusions drawn from the find! Though as a complete novice, I will not raise this in academic circles, but will make any data available through RAT

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Robert

If there is any evidence for leather bracae, believe me that is exciting and I would like to know!

David I have also seen a French Napoleonic Hussar Uniform with exactly the same arrangement so I guess the practice was quite common. I would not be surprised to find out that the average Roman cavalry trooper did likewise.

Graham.

[Octavianvs]

Robert - reading what you have so far on the leather riding trousers if it is a hide you wish to use then I may have an idea. I do have this info on leather from legio 20 maryland usa that I go by :
Vegetable-Tanned Leather is made with plant-based tanning solutions, not modern chemicals. It is pinkish or flesh-colored all the way through. It is readily available and may be referred to as tooling leather, and it is generally the only type that should be used.

Chrome-Tanned Leather should NOT be used. It is made with chromium or other modern chemicals and can be most any color, but the cut edges are often a different color from the faces.

Topgrain Leather has one smooth side, which was the animal's skin surface. This smooth side is called the grain side, while the rough inner side is the flesh side. All surviving Roman leather is topgrain, as far as is known, and always seems to be used smooth or grain side outwards.

Split or Suede Leather should NOT be used. It is rough on both sides, being the inner layer of a thicker hide which has been split into one topgrain layer and one or more "split" layers.

as for what type of leather to use I have a leather place right down the street from here. I can see if they have some scraps you can look at and send them to you if you like. I should be able to go there saturday if so.

[Caballo]

Graham Sumner wrote "Roman military garments were usually in wool so I would presume the bracae would be as well. "
One question- would the wool be similar to "tweed" weave or a blanket style "smooth" wool? Apologies for the lack of technical vocabulary- I am a real textile novice here.....

Cheers

Caballo

[Peroni]

All surviving Roman leather is topgrain, as far as is known, and always seems to be used smooth or grain side outwards.

Apart from the Mainz Calcei it seems. :wink:

[Octavianvs]

[Apart from the Mainz Calcei it seems. :wink:

Ok actually forgot all about that but never had a chance to really get into them So i really can not comment on them. This is what happens when you work long hours and need a holiday 8)

[Lepidina]

Riding breeches were made from all doeskin in the 18th, 19th, and even 20th centuries. This is probably why modern riding pants are a tan or khaki color. Modern breeches can have knee pads or suede/doeskin or modern materials across the back of the legs, inner thigh, and on the seat called "full seat" breeches. Most people wear them because they are more "grippy" than just cloth. The flip side of this is that people get used to riding with grippy breeches and thus don't develop proper balance.

Wool and linen are pretty grippy too once you and your horse start to sweat. The underside of my sidesaddle is linen and I use it without a saddle pad because it sticks to the horse much better. Wool saddle pads are also great for that reason.

Riding bareback in shorts makes you stick to the horse better than with breeches tho' your legs get all icky.

Plus if you are riding all day long and relying on your breeches to hold you in the saddle, you will eventually fall off because you don't have the balance. So I think as others have mentioned, leather was historically used for reenforcement, instead of grip.

[Graham Sumner]

Paul wrote:

Graham Sumner wrote "Roman military garments were usually in wool so I would presume the bracae would be as well. "
One question- would the wool be similar to "tweed" weave or a blanket style "smooth" wool? Apologies for the lack of technical vocabulary- I am a real textile novice here.....

Hi Paul

In general Tabbies, linens and woolens, plain-weave, weft-or warp faced and repp are common on sites such as Mons Claudianus and Myos Hormos. Wool is a suitable fibre for keeping the body warm and providing insulation from dehydration.

Twills are frequent on military sites in Egypt. Diagonal twills 2/1 seem to be more popular in the first and second centuries.

As for leather Bracae. On the Lacus Curtius website the William Smith Dictionary has this to say. 'Trousers were principally woolen; but Agathius states (Hist.ii.5) that in Europe they were made of linen and of leather; probably the Asiatics made them of cotton and silk'. So if any of our classically minded scholars on RAT can follow this lead perhaps they can find this source and tell us what the original text says, as translations are not always reliable.

Hope this helps.

Graham.

[Caballo]

Thanks Graham!

Cheers

Caballo

[drsrob]

A transcription of the Histories of Agathius is on the net:

BIBLIOTHECA AUGUSTANA

Unfortunatly only book one is there, the other ones have yet to be added.