Spartans at Adrianople in 378 AD?

[qcarr]

Several sites on the Web claim that a Spartan phalanx fought for the Romans at Adrianople in 378 AD. Here is an example from Wikipedia (the first place I noticed this):

"Purportedly, following the disaster that befell the Roman Imperial Army at the Battle of Adrianople (378 AD), a Spartan phalanx met and defeated a force of raiding Visigoths in battle. There is, however, no genuine evidence of this occurring."

Does anyone know where this statement comes from? Is there primary source evidence? I have not read Marcellinus' account of the battle - does he mention the Spartans?

Thanks for any help anyone can provide!

[hoplite14gr]

Hmm...The Roman army of the time had spear armed units.
There was also not a univercal situation in the Greek subject states.
Free/allied status cities maintained militias.
18 cities were in the KOINON TON ELEFTHEROLAKONON = free Laconian Comonwealth. Romans recruited initialy auxilia and cavalry from their allies but late perhaps even other troop types.
My guess is that any Spartan if were there they would be in a unit raised in Peloponissos.

Kind regards

[Robert Vermaat]

I blame the Wikipedia-effect for this. Someone has either read it in some publication or though it up himself (but no citation), it goes on a website or directly on a Wiki article - and it's repeated all over the internet - still without citation.

In 378 AD the Spartans would be Roman citizens, like everybody else within the Empire, since Caracalla.
Also, like every other citizen, Spartan civilians would be prohibited to own or carry weapons.
So, were there 'Spartan' units about by 378 AD? My guess would be that this would be extremely unlikely. The Romans had initially supported the idea of 'free' tribes and states (like the Batavians) but by the 4th c. this was a situation of the ancient past.

Maybe the confusion has started by the fact that Late Roman armies could fight in a phalangial formation. However, these formations were not similar to the ancient Greek and Macedonian phalanx.

[taira1180]

Probably the romans recruited the local militia and spartans were the people available. If the story is indeed true.

[S SEVERUS]

That's a complete ridiculous story.

[Tarbicus]

I used to have a work colleague who was born and raised in modern Sparta, Greece, but he don't wear a dirty red cloak or carry a big round shield. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if he bore as much similarity to a bloke who fought at Thermopylae as one of those 4th C ones would have. And when I sent him a link to a recording of ancient Greek being spoken accurately, he hated it (too effeminate).

[Idomeneas]

I used to have a work colleague who was born and raised in modern Sparta, Greece, but he don't wear a dirty red cloak or carry a big round shield. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if he bore as much similarity to a bloke who fought at Thermopylae as one of those 4th C ones would have. And when I sent him a link to a recording of ancient Greek being spoken accurately, he hated it (too effeminate).

well it depends from the recording cause most of the ones i heard sound like german tourists (no offence guys). On the contrary i remember a french documentary were a greek actor recited homer in the original text and it was striking! the language had flow and a melodic sense.

Sorry for the off topic. BTW roman legions recruited local population. So there might been a spartan originated contigent but they would use exactly the same equipment with the rest legionaires. Last time i checked Peiraeus (yesterday night) i saw no triremes in the port :wink:

[Arthes]

I used to have a work colleague who was born and raised in modern Sparta, Greece, but he don't wear a dirty red cloak or carry a big round shield. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if he bore as much similarity to a bloke who fought at Thermopylae as one of those 4th C ones would have.

The descendants of the Spartans are supposedly living in Mani, not Sparta itself nowadays, although some of them may have moved back....!
They definitely have some similarities to the blokes that fought at Thermopylae... and see their flag below
Tan e epi tas....with the shield or on it....:wink:

Last time i checked Peiraeus (yesterday night) i saw no triremes in the port :wink:

It would be lovely if there were...... :wink:
regards
Arthes

[Tarbicus]

On the contrary i remember a french documentary were a greek actor recited homer in the original text and it was striking! the language had flow and a melodic sense.

That sounds like the one to me. I really liked it.

[Idomeneas]

On the contrary i remember a french documentary were a greek actor recited homer in the original text and it was striking! the language had flow and a melodic sense.

That sounds like the one to me. I really liked it.

i cant recall the name of the series but it was about armies from mycenian to medieval era. It had reconstructions, draws and many interviews. That episode had an interview of Conolly where he is seen drawing one of his Trojan war pictures. Its old series perhaps 70's.

[FAVENTIANVS]

All this 3 pics are you?

[P. Lilius Frugius Simius]

What I have read about Spartans fighting, it was related, not to Hadrianopolis itself, nor later, but in one of Alaric's raids through the Balkans later on (ca. 402)...

Apparently, the Tervingi (no Visigoths at the moment, they were born later on, around Stilico's death, when all the Goths--and many other 'Barbarians'--joined the Tervingi and Greutungi of Alaric's) razed the Balkans, and a raiding party fought against a Spartan army (which, as commented above, was surely a local garrison and citizen levies) and won. Later on, the bulk of Alaric's army arrived and completely obliterated the city, which was built again in Bizantine times.

While authors comment that even IV Century Spartans were 'different', and they surely clung to many past traditions, they were probably as Romans as anyone else; Greek speaking, probably, and even with a Dorian accent, but Romans anyway.

best regards

[Robert Vermaat]

What I have read about Spartans fighting, it was related, not to Hadrianopolis itself, nor later, but in one of Alaric's raids through the Balkans later on (ca. 402)...
Apparently, the Tervingi (no Visigoths at the moment, they were born later on, around Stilico's death, when all the Goths--and many other 'Barbarians'--joined the Tervingi and Greutungi of Alaric's) razed the Balkans, and a raiding party fought against a Spartan army (which, as commented above, was surely a local garrison and citizen levies) and won. Later on, the bulk of Alaric's army arrived and completely obliterated the city, which was built again in Bizantine times.
While authors comment that even IV Century Spartans were 'different', and they surely clung to many past traditions, they were probably as Romans as anyone else; Greek speaking, probably, and even with a Dorian accent, but Romans anyway.

Hi David,

First of all there’s no distinction between Visigoths and Greuthingi/Tervingi. Visgoths is but a later name, the T and G were the two main groups that were later identified as Visigoths.
The Gothic army under Alaric was a waxing and waning affair, growing after each victory and slinking after each defeat. Not even the T and G were constantly Alaric’s army, and he was never the King of the Goths. Even when he was at the height of his power there were other Gothic groups (such as the one under Sarus) which never joined Alaric and opposed him.

Second, could you tell me anything about the source for that statement? Alaric was confronted by many armies on the peninsula during that time, even by Stilicho.
The suggestion that there was a ‘Spartan’ army seems besides the point, since no armies were stationed there. A citizen levy may be possible in RTW but not in the late 4th or early 5th century – citizens were forbidden to own or carry arms on pain of death. Citizens or even slaves who were occasionally drafted (in times of peril) served in the regular army, not in separate units. The suggestion that Spartans were more independent or even that they formed a militia cannot be supported afaik. It would be contrary to Roman law.

I’ve heard similar claims about a tribe of 10.000 Sarmatians roaming the north of Britain, unseen by archaeology, unchartered by Roman documents, but ready and waiting to fight for King Arthur as Knights of the Round Table. This Spartan army, I fear, must rest on similar wishful thinking.

[Arthes]

Thanks for forget about me Arthes! :x

I didn't forget about you at all.....I hoped you would mention your proud heritage.... :wink: :wink: