Sub-Roman Britain (Cavalry etc)

[dashydog]

I am unsure of the runic translation in this. Is this relevant to what we are discussing?

Its a well known rendition of a Sarmatian lancer..with the kontus shortened "to fit".
Note the lamella armour. Back then, those with no access to armouries, did it the traditional way...with horses hooves or cattle hooves. Almost inpenetrable, they said.
In my view, it was proablyu better than steel or bronze and much nicer to wear. But..the increasing fashion for Y chrom all male war bands made the horse hoof armour too expensive, slow and difficult to make.

[Astiryu1]

Horse hooves were used for armor material? I was unaware!
I thought rawhide scales or tooled leather was more likely.

[Alanus]

Horse hoof armor is mention by a couple of early historians, but the method was passe by the time we reach post-Roman Britain. Like you say, it was all iron and even a status symbol.

[Astiryu1]

Makes sense.

Can anyone trace a scale from their armor and post it? I would love to have a pattern to make leather scales from.
I could also make metal ones with a little more effort. The "Tandy" scales look a little off. Something Thracian.

[Alanus]

I'm sure that some post-Roman Britons had scale armor, just like in the Vatican ms.
Don't know where to send you for something better than those by Tandy. (Didn't realize Tandy made scales for reenactors.) :?

[Astiryu1]

They look like a u with a line across the top and holes around the edges for cording. Look them up.

[Alanus]

I'll look the scales up but they don't sound right. Should have one hole at each edge of the top, covered when they overlap.

[Astiryu1]

Yeah! That's why I think they look funny... The plastic LARP scales look better than that. :?

[Robert Vermaat]

As far as I know, no significant horse armor has been found in Britain. There is a nice horse helmet in one of the museums but it's early Celtic. Good horse armor, intact, has been found at Duro Europa, a long distance from the isle.

Dura Europos. :wink:
Indeed, no horse armour found in Britain. We do have evidence of an armoured cavalry unit (Equites catafractarii iuniores), but no evidence that their horses were armoured.

[Alanus]

Dura Europos. :wink:
Indeed, no horse armour found in Britain. We do have evidence of an armoured cavalry unit (Equites catafractarii iuniores), but no evidence that their horses were armoured.

Robert!

I never realized there was evidence of the Equites catafractarii (in the north?) I've always treated this ala speculatively, since the only source I could find was Skene.(About as trustworthy as Mack the Knife.) :wink:

aj

[Robert Vermaat]

We do have evidence of an armoured cavalry unit (Equites catafractarii iuniores), but no evidence that their horses were armoured.

I never realized there was evidence of the Equites catafractarii (in the north?) I've always treated this ala speculatively, since the only source I could find was Skene.(About as trustworthy as Mack the Knife.) :wink:

No need to. The source is dead-certain:
Notitia Dignitatum, under the command of the Comes Britanniarum, one of the 6 cavalry and 3 infantry regiments under his command.

[Alanus]

Back to you,

It's good to know that someone else believes in the Notitia Dignitatum's viability. Been a lot of wrangling over it through the decades.
But do you think all six units made it into Britain? I always felt that three probably did-- the Equites Honoriani Seniores (aka Equites Taifali Seniors), the Taifali Juniors, and the Catafractarii in the north. And was this a trade-off, with Stilicho pulling out a legion. Still enough footsoldiers left there to raise Constantine to usurper. :?

[Robert Vermaat]

It's good to know that someone else believes in the Notitia Dignitatum's viability. Been a lot of wrangling over it through the decades.

I don't see why we should doubt the text. Most of the wrangling was over the images, especially those of the shield decorations. Some said those were a Medieval fantasy. But as for the text itself, I have no problem whatsoever with that.

But do you think all six units made it into Britain? I always felt that three probably did-- the Equites Honoriani Seniores (aka Equites Taifali Seniors), the Taifali Juniors, and the Catafractarii in the north. And was this a trade-off, with Stilicho pulling out a legion. Still enough footsoldiers left there to raise Constantine to usurper. :?

If they were part of the command of the Comes Britanniarum, they served in Britain with certainty. The document describes that command, so we can be sure that they were present there at the time of writing (c. 495 AD) or in the years after that until c. 425 - although I have doubts about what we can say about Britain, based on the ND, after Constantine III.
As to their stations, they would have been part of the mobile field army for the diocese, so guessing that they would have been billeted around the Midlands might not be odd.

[Astiryu1]

That would be "Eboracum" right? That is more modernly "York"? Or further south? I would like to get an Idea of where since I am stuck here.

[Robert Vermaat]

That would be "Eboracum" right? That is more modernly "York"? Or further south? I would like to get an Idea of where since I am stuck here.

Further south I'd say. To strike in all directions you can be only in the North.