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Who would win?
#46
Ok.
Scoring:
Draw 1
Victory 2
Results:

1-
Spartans 1
Romans 1

2-
Spartans 0
Romans 2
Francisco Machado aka M.ilionario

Atheist

"You must not fight too often with one enemy, or you will teach him all your art of war" - Napoleon Bonaparte
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#47
Quote:Ok.
Scoring:
Draw 1
Victory 2
Results:

1-
Spartans 1
Romans 1

2-
Spartans 0
Romans 2

Romans win 3-1. Big Grin
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#48
Where?
Fight 1 or 2?
I think a poll would be better but there are 2 questions here so...suggestions?
Francisco Machado aka M.ilionario

Atheist

"You must not fight too often with one enemy, or you will teach him all your art of war" - Napoleon Bonaparte
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#49
Quote:.

Now, which V century Spartan is it that we are concentrating on? Persian Wars I presume... then they would have bronze helmets and armour and not linothorax,

I think this assertion is a little overbold; there is strong evidence to suggest that the linothorax was predominant in the Persian Wars.
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#50
Quote: do so with their bare hands, something the romans would find terrifiyng, I mean who in this world continues to fight after losing his weapons?

Me. It's kept me alive on a number of ( re-enactment) battlefields, including my first. The same would apply to any warrior who wanted to stay alive. When you're disarmed you're in danger, but you're only dead when you're dead.
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#51
Quote: Does this make the Sherman inferior? Hardly, since making more of them then the Germans could make Tigers was always part of the strategy.
Travis

Losing four times the crews was also part of that strategy. Which is why the Germans refered to Shermans as "Tommy cookers". What this says about the attitude of Allied commanders and politicians is the vital historical point to note.
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#52
Knock knock!
Who is there?
Party Pooper!

I am always suprised that threads such as this one arise and then thrive. Not so much that they arise, but that they thrive.

I do read them though if I have time as I always hope to learn something. Alas this one is of a lower quality than the one on samurai-vs-legionaries.

How about samurai-vs-spartans!
Jeffery Wyss
"Si vos es non secui of solutio tunc vos es secui of preciptate."
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#53
Quote:How about samurai-vs-spartans!
LOL........no comparison.
Start your own if you wish, I'll surely post something there :twisted:
Francisco Machado aka M.ilionario

Atheist

"You must not fight too often with one enemy, or you will teach him all your art of war" - Napoleon Bonaparte
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#54
A couple of points:

1) Situations do arise where it is impossible to outflank the enemy immediately. Thermopylae is the obvious example that everyone here knows of. Two full days of head to head fighting ensued, without any opportunity for the Persians outflanking the (hugely) outnumbered Greek forces (which also lacked cavalry for resisting outflanking manuvers). This is rare, but it can occur; the Spartans in our scenario might be in a place that cannot be turned.

2) As Matthew Amt pointed out, iron weapons would have been available to both sides, and IIRC, bronze helmets were used by both eras (as well as Roman iron ones), so there isn't a convincing technological edge either way.

3) Romans with pila fought with Pyrrhus, fought at Cyanocephalae, and fought at Pydna. In each case, the pila failed to destroy the front of the phalanx. In each case, the Roman swordsmen could not carve a hole into the front of the phalanx. In each case, it was the flanks of the phalanx (and its breaking up in rough ground) that allowed the Romans to recover, and ultimately win the battle.
Felix Wang
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#55
Quote:
tlclark:2cvgvana Wrote:Does this make the Sherman inferior? Hardly, since making more of them then the Germans could make Tigers was always part of the strategy.
Travis

Losing four times the crews was also part of that strategy. Which is why the Germans refered to Shermans as "Tommy cookers". What this says about the attitude of Allied commanders and politicians is the vital historical point to note.

Too true!! but then many wars are won on such considerations. When Grant figured out he could simply throw more men at the confederates then they coudl afford to lose, the war was essentially all over but for the actual killing. People thought Grant was a butcher, but it worked.

The reverse also comes into play. Montgomery really had numerical and logisitical superiority in N. Africa. His strategy was to maintain that numerical superiority, at least at first. This made him, initially, casualty adverse, and Rommel exploited this to good effect. Eventually Montgomery realized he had to press the advantage, even if that meant more deaths and losing numbers.

The Romans made many similar decisions.
Theodoros of Smyrna (Byzantine name)
aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

Moderator, RAT

Rules for RAT:
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?Rules">http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?Rules for posting

Oh! and the Toledo helmet .... oh hell, forget it. :? <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" />:?
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#56
Quote:
M.ilionario:2gp7uf14 Wrote:Ok.
Scoring:
Draw 1
Victory 2
Results:

1-
Spartans 1
Romans 1

2-
Spartans 0
Romans 2

Romans win 3-1. Big Grin

Late Romans do even better thanks to technological advances and reliance on flexible calvary!

Spartan against even an unmounted klibanarii? No contest.

Travis
Theodoros of Smyrna (Byzantine name)
aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

Moderator, RAT

Rules for RAT:
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?Rules">http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?Rules for posting

Oh! and the Toledo helmet .... oh hell, forget it. :? <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" />:?
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#57
Here is a better Idea, why don't you all just play Rome Total War, make it Rome(julii etc) versus Greek Cities, give Roman Legionnaires and Spartan Hoplites max stats and let them duke it out! :lol:
Anabasis

A.K.A. Michael the Thinker/Tinkerer

"Those who do not choose to see past the veil of lies
and accept the truth of the realities around them are doomed to
suffer for all time" -Michael
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#58
Quote:Here is a better Idea, why don't you all just play Rome Total War, make it Rome(julii etc) versus Greek Cities, give Roman Legionnaires and Spartan Hoplites max stats and let them duke it out! :lol:
LoL....
The spartans won every time I played with them..... Big Grin
But, well, we can't consider that a realist game.... anyway even if you play a realism mod they win all the time agaist legionaries.... no possible competition 8)
Francisco Machado aka M.ilionario

Atheist

"You must not fight too often with one enemy, or you will teach him all your art of war" - Napoleon Bonaparte
Reply
#59
Quote:
Anabasis:vr8q0obb Wrote:Here is a better Idea, why don't you all just play Rome Total War, make it Rome(julii etc) versus Greek Cities, give Roman Legionnaires and Spartan Hoplites max stats and let them duke it out! :lol:
LoL....
The spartans won every time I played with them..... Big Grin
But, well, we can't consider that a realist game.... anyway even if you play a realism mod they win all the time agaist legionaries.... no possible competition 8)

True it can't be considered a realist game, but it is the closest thing we have. Its not like we could go back in time and ask the Spartans to meet up with some Romans to see who would win. They probably wouldn't fight anyway, they would probably throw up their swords and pikes and drink the strong wine! :lol: They would become buddies, not enemies!
Anabasis

A.K.A. Michael the Thinker/Tinkerer

"Those who do not choose to see past the veil of lies
and accept the truth of the realities around them are doomed to
suffer for all time" -Michael
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#60
Quote:I think this assertion is a little overbold; there is strong evidence to suggest that the linothorax was predominant in the Persian Wars.

Yet none suggesting that the Spartans wore it before about 435BC.
[Image: parsiaqj0.png]
[size=92:7tw9zbc0]- Bonnie Lawson: proudly Manx.[/size]
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