Iberian Segmentata finds and dates

[Ebusitanus]

Not sure if someone said already something about this...

The XX International Congress over Roman frontiers is just ongoing in Leon (old Legio) in NW Spain and some recent finds have been brough forward about the Lorica Segmentata in old Hispania.

Aurrecoechea Fernández, J in his "Las loricae segmentatae en Hispania: cronología y tipología" brings forward the notion of:

Apparently Kahlkriese type of pieces have been found around Astorga (Asturica Augusta) in BC dates beyond the Varus battle find. Perhaps its inception can now be traced back to the Augustean Cantabrian wars or even in a civil war context.
Corbridge y Newsted remains have also been found sharing the same dates for most of the II Century without one really replacing the other.
Other pieces of the region are dated around 350 AC well beyond the normal idea of its use.

For further info:

http://www.20fronteraromana.unileon.es/ ... tation.htm

The list of participants and their lectures is quite impressive:

http://www.20fronteraromana.unileon.es/ ... ations.htm

[Tarbicus]

Holy crap!!

Me wants to know more! Laudes to you though Ebusitanus! Thanks.

[Ebusitanus]

Yes, I´m a bit shocked actually on this small response by our membership. We are talking about Segmentata at least 30 years earlier than thought and with a whole new onlook about its posible origins.

[Tarbicus]

They're a cautious lot these Romans :wink:

[Ebusitanus]

Hey, I´m not saying this is some truth to be taken at face value but at least some debate here folks!

Maybe Aitor could tell us more since he hails from around that area.

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Daniel

It certainly is of interest, Segmentata 50 years earlier and by what you say possibly even 100 years later than previously thought. However we can not really have a proper debate about it until anything is published which will probably be years away. Our only hope is that someone like Mike Bishop is attending and they might allow us a sneek preview of the details.

Nevertheless we perhaps should not be too surprised to see the segmentata earlier for at least a couple of reasons. Firstly the Romans rarely invented anything. Secondly the figure of Hector in the Golden House appears to be wearing a bronze segmentata with iron edged in bronze shoulder pieces. I passed this information on to Mike who incorporated it into his book. My friend Raffaele D'Amato believes the figure represents a Praetorian Guard from Nero's time. However Mike Bishop was inclined to think that the figure was based on Hellenistic period art. If the latter interpretation is correct that would imply that the segmentata armour does have an earlier origin than the Roman imperial period.

Graham.

[Praefectusclassis]

Some of my collegues are at the conference too. I'm sure it's session based, so I don't know whether they'll have heard this lecture, but they might have paper abstracts. I'll ask when they're back.

[claudia crisis]

Yes, I´m a bit shocked actually on this small response by our membership. We are talking about Segmentata at least 30 years earlier than thought and with a whole new onlook about its posible origins.

I was not sure from what you said in your post quite what response to make on this.
You say Kalkriese bits before Varus - yes we have other bits (Dangstetten) which also may be BC. How much earlier are we talking here? The 2 links just advertise the Conference which 1) is already underway 2) too expensive for me to consider attending - would just have to wait/hope that something gets published (hopefully in English, as I cant read Spanish).
The later posts suggest 30yrs earlier, then 50 yrs earlier, so do we have any kind of dating context? & how strong is this dating evidence?
Info would be very useful if you have any.

Hilary

[Ebusitanus]

I wrote the guy from whom I got the info and links (He is attending the Conference) for more precise info and perhaps a way to contact Mr. Aurrecoechea. I´m also waiting to hear from Aitor who lives nearby and who might know something too. The early pieces recovered, acording to this source quoting Mr. Aurrecoechea, seem to date between the Cantabrian wars of Augustus and even Civil War times.

Hope to hear more too.

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Yes, I´m a bit shocked actually on this small response by our membership. We are talking about Segmentata at least 30 years earlier than thought and with a whole new onlook about its posible origins.

I am a bit shocked into not being able to respond. I welcome the find, and hope it can be published soon. I note in Bishop's Lorica Segmenata, the undated Pergamon find has ring ties on the brestplate similar to those found on the late Hellenic corslet found in reliefs of the first century B.C. I wonder if anything similar to this has been encountered.

Ralph Izard

[mcbishop]

would just have to wait/hope that something gets published (hopefully in English, as I cant read Spanish).

I've already been approached by Joaquin to include a paper on this in JRMES, where he usually publishes in English. I'm guessing his paper in the Limes Proceedings, when it appears, will indeed be in Spanish.

Mike Bishop

[FlaviusCrispus]

Mike--

Wasn't something on the Iberian finds already included in the last edition of Arma? I recall glancing at a synopsis in Arik Greenberg's copy and thinking, "wow, that looks interesting!" Or was it some kind of preview of a future article?