The transformation of Roman Britain

[Redwald]

This thread is to continue the discussion begun on: 'Appearence and tactics of early 5th century Saxons'

Vortigern wrote:
The main differences between English and Wales occurred only later. It is not until the 7th-8th c. that we begin to see a larger gap between 'the English' and 'The Welsh'..

and

Maybe that's the time when 'English' and 'Welsh' really became separate languages,

I am not sure what you mean by either of these two statements; are you saying that at some time there was no difference between the English and the Welsh and that the two languages were identical?

Certainly, in the case of Serbian and Croat you have two groups of people who basically speak the same language trying to invent differences -- you get the same between Hindi and Urdu speakers. This is not at all similar to the case of Welsh and English. Vortigern, have you heard Welsh being spoken or seen written Welsh?


Cheers,

Paul

[Agraes]

Welsh is a celtic, Brythonic language, with some words taken from English, but English is a Germanic language.

It's funny, if we remplace "English" by "Breton" this would be way more logical :wink:

[Tarbicus]

This is not at all similar to the case of Welsh and English.

Ooooohhhh. Don't even think the Welsh are English. When the French invaded during the Napoleonic Wars (yes, it did happen) they landed in Wales, fully expecting the Welsh to aid them as the latter thoroughly despised the English. Unfortunately for them they didn't know about the one thing that the Welsh hated more than an Englishman - an atheist. They didn't stay long.

Welsh, Cornish and Breton. It's nothing like English and unpronounceable to most English people. No, all English people.
[url:38408zza]http://www.llanegwad-carmarthen.co.uk/welshwords.htm[/url] Don't be fooled by the 'W' 'Y' and 'U' s, and the 'LL' would challenge even a Dutchman.

[Agraes]

I guess of the three, Welsh is the worse. I did one year of Breton and it wasn't that difficult.

But their is one thing worse than Welsh: Gaelic :wink:

[Robert Vermaat]

My original post:

one question does occur:
If as many suggest that germanic culture was so attractive that a whole peoples in the British Isles adopted germanic fashions and learnt a completely new language, extremely well; how is it that the Welsh in Wales were able to resist adopting the language or fashions so effectively?

This is becomeing very OT, I'm aware of that... :wink:

There's two theories for that, some apply also to other post-Roman areas outside Britain. But yes, just thinking aloud here:

1) Those in Wales (and at the start, also those in Cumbria and Cornwall of course) had not adapted to all too much Roman culture either, so you could (could) argue that they were less influencable to other influences either.

2) The main differences between English and Wales occurred only later. It is not until the 7th-8th c. that we begin to see a larger gap between 'the English' and 'The Welsh'. The picture is very vague, for sure, mainly due to the lack of written sources before that time, but if it's a correct picture it seems to coincide with the dvelopment of larger kingdoms in England, as well as the development of history as a mean of dynastic confirmation (first in England, shortly followed by Wales).

Maybe that's the time when 'English' and 'Welsh' really became separate languages, with people forced to make a choice between the one or the other. I can imagine that's when Welsh start to move to Welsh-held territories, and identities become polarised. It's the period when Offa's Dyke was built.

It's the Bosnian model. That could also be the time when Welsh word were 'purged' from the Middle English language, like Croats do with Serbian words and Flemish do with French words?

Like I said, just thinking aloud here.

I am not sure what you mean by either of these two statements; are you saying that at some time there was no difference between the English and the Welsh and that the two languages were identical?

My bad, I meant to write 'separate peoples' but I wrote another word..
Of course Welsh and English are totally different. No, I meant to suggest that British and Saxon had lived in the same communities until then, or maybe British communities next to Saxon communities. But not all Saxons behind a sharply divided frontier, and the British on the other side. At some point conflict starts and polarisation grows, driving the British to a choice: become English or leave.
This is also the time when the first English sources are written down, and you see a strange mix of the words used for British: sometimes British, sometimes Welsh, sometimes even Britwelsh. The laws of Ine of Wessex are also from this period and could reflect a changing social situation, where those recognised as British (Welsh) are judged to be 'less' in legal matters.

The theory is that such a model would explain why there are so few Celtic words in English - they could have been purged, as Croats do with Serb words, Flemish do with French words, and The French government recntly suggested was done with English words. Of course, some words remain because they are no longer recognised as Celtic. Some English words seem to have ended up in Modern Welsh, too.

But like I said, this is a theory - so shoot at it.

[Tarbicus]

One place that had its original Celtic language completely erased was Cumbria (Cumbrian being another Brythonic language). But apparently there might be evidence of placenames containing Cumbrian remaining around Wigan showing the locals there continued using it for a long time. Similarly, the Vikings disappeared from my homeplace but many placenames still reveal their very Norse origins after their settlement under Hingemund, Thurstaston, Irby, Thingwall being examples.

[manda]

Welsh is very hard to understand and moreso to speak. We had a welsh exchange student at school and I could understand bits of what they were saying. But when I tried to speak it, lol the student was all "what on earth are you trying to say?" lol So I gave up.

English being a germanic language is true, I remember learning german at school and it was easier to pick up. Something about the way it is spoken and the sounds.

[Agraes]

Its a bit more clear now :wink:

One place that had its original Celtic language completely erased was Cumbria (Cumbrian being another Brythonic language). But apparently there might be evidence of placenames containing Cumbrian remaining around Wigan showing the locals there continued using it for a long time.

At least Carlisle!

I don't think lot of germanic people settled down in Rheged/Cumbria after its conquest by the Northumbrian. There was also irish colonies on the coast, and the Brythonic kingdom of Strathclyde (united with Scotland in the XIth century) controlled the area sometimes. As I know, there was also strong norse influence here. Well, under the weight of Gaelic, Norse and Germanic influences, the Brythonic population of Northern England/Southern Scotland probably lost their language in the high middle ages, while their once brythonic elite (Urien Rheged, Gwalchmai of Gododdin, even perhaps Arthur for some scholars) was gone since centuries.

Another case is Wessex and Dumnonia. Wessex rose in power in the area very near of Dumnonia, the ancient tribal territory of the Belgae. It has been suggested that Cerdic was a foederati leader of mixed birth. His firth success may be explained by a population used to live near those germanic foederati and supporting them. And when the time of conquest rise, they feel more Saxons than Britons, thus supporting their germanic leader against the Wealas - the Dumnonians.

Foederati often appeared to take advantage of the situation. Ida of Bernicia chased the Bryneich king from his palace, and Bryneich only remained as an enclave. Deirans will take control of Ebrauc, the mighty kingdom of Peredur ap Ellifer Gosgordfawr.

And when it cames to choose your identidy as a Briton or a Saxon, when you would be given some law advantages by adopting germanic customs, religion and language, Britons would have choose this - at least part of them. A parallel may be Muslim Spain, when Christians paid more imposition than Muslims.

[Robert Vermaat]

Wessex rose in power in the area very near of Dumnonia, the ancient tribal territory of the Belgae. It has been suggested that Cerdic was a foederati leader of mixed birth. His first success may be explained by a population used to live near those germanic foederati and supporting them. And when the time of conquest rise, they feel more Saxons than Britons, thus supporting their Germanic leader against the Wealas - the Dumnonians.

It's been suggested that the origins of Wessex lay in the Upper Thames Valley, since their first bishopric was situated in Dorchester on Thames. Whatever the true origins, the names of the first kings of Wessex (or at least the first kings later claimed as the first king), were British-sounding enough to at least keep open the probability that they were Britons.
Wessex (or rather the Gewissae as they were originally referred to) conquered the territory to the south, including Hampshire and Wight during the mid- to late 6th c., before they in turn were pressed south by Mercia in the early 7th c. But most of the dynastic material of early Wessex seems to come from that of the Jutes of Hamshire and Wight, not from the early Gewissae (of which we know nothing before Cerdic).

Foederati often appeared to take advantage of the situation. Ida of Bernicia chased the Bryneich king from his palace, and Bryneich only remained as an enclave. Deirans will take control of Ebrauc, the mighty kingdom of Peredur ap Ellifer Gosgordfawr.

Where does that story of the chased-out king come from?
By Deirans you mean Germanic federates? Or the original Britons? Yes, Eliffer (Eleutherius?) 'of the Great Host' seems to have been influential, given his position in the Northern pedigrees.

And when it cames to choose your identidy as a Briton or a Saxon, when you would be given some law advantages by adopting Germanic customs, religion and language, Britons would have choose this - at least part of them. A parallel may be Muslim Spain, when Christians paid more imposition than Muslims.

I absolutely agree with that.

Pray that the devil finds you before I do, lest I cause you pains unknown even to the damned!
Unknown Welsh general to a Saxon general; shouted across a field.

Wow - nice quote! Where did you find it? [/quote]

[Agraes]

About Ida, I read this on EBK (not always a reliable source but a huge database).
http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/bios/cuncarbr.html

Deirans=Anglian Foederati :wink:

And for the quote, ask Ranika, he gave it to me for the quotes in the mod

[authun]

Vortigern wrote:

That could also be the time when Welsh word were 'purged' from the Middle English language, like Croats do with Serbian words and Flemish do with French words?

The situation between the flemmings and walloons is an interesting parallel to that of the anglo saxons and welsh. You'll be aware that 'wall' in 'walloon' has the same etymology as 'wahl' as used by the anglo saxons. I don't know how long the desire to stop any encroachment of the other's language has existed, but the difference has stood the test of time without the aid of Offa's dyke. Despite Frankish control of France, the gallo roman language persisted. Only in those areas where there was movement of peoples during the Merowingian period was there language replacement.

We see a similar situation in Switzerland where Alemanni displaced celtic speaking peoples in some parts but not in others, so language frontiers were formed. In the Rhone valley we move from a germanic speaking area to a french speaking area when we enter the Canton of Valais, or Wallis in german. Even today, the french speaking parts of Switzerland, the Suisse Romande are called Das Welschland in modern german.

The Burgundians were settled around Lake Geneva and later expanded down the lower Rhone valley with their kingdom centred on Lyons. However, they never imposed their language in either that part of Switzerland or those parts of modern France where gallo roman persisted eventually giving way to french. I suspect that numbers here play an important part. It's not just power and control.

best

Harry Amphlett

[authun]

Well, under the weight of Gaelic, Norse and Germanic influences, the Brythonic population of Northern England/Southern Scotland probably lost their language in the high middle ages

Hi Agraes,

Something oft overlooked here is the very low population density. Even today, places such as Westmorland, the Westmoringas or dwellers of the western moors are very sparsely populated. At the time it fell under Northumbrian control it could have hardly been more than a few settlements of around a dozen people or so with perhaps just one market.

best

Harry Amphlett

[authun]

Whatever the true origins, the names of the first kings of Wessex (or at least the first kings later claimed as the first king), were British-sounding enough to at least keep open the probability that they were Britons.

I've often heard this but most historians seem to only agree that Cerdic is a british name whilst some others add Cadwalla too. However, during the time of Aethelfrith there was a norwegian pirate by the name Kerdic and there was a marcomanic prince by the name of Catuualda, both elements being PIE in origin. Names such as Ceolwulf may look celtic but are very germanic and it has to be remembered that even 'wallah', which looks like it is derived from 'wahl' is PIE and, in modern Hindi, means someone who is in charge.

Even tribal name such as Caeracates, Caerosi and Caemani may look celtic but these were supposedly germanic groups mentioned by Caesar. In many cases it is impossible to sort out he exact etymology because we have PIE elements in germanic names which have been written down by gallo roman or british clerics. Even in the cases where they have been written down by germanics, they tend to be germanics who were taught by britions, and all at a time when precise spelling wasn't that important.

best

Harry Amphlett

[Robert Vermaat]

I've often heard this but most historians seem to only agree that Cerdic is a british name whilst some others add Cadwalla too. However, during the time of Aethelfrith there was a norwegian pirate by the name Kerdic and there was a marcomanic prince by the name of Catuualda, both elements being PIE in origin.

A very valid point. The times I have to explain that Vortigern is NOT a Goth because of the resembence to the name Frithigirn... Sure, there are many resembling names. However, we have several in a row here, and not on the continent but in Britain: Cerdic (Caratacus, Caradoc, Ceredig), his successor Cynric (Cunorix) and his sucessor Ceawlin (Coline).
Sure, some alternative versions may be Irish, but the possibility remains that we are dealing here with Britons, not Anglo-Saxons.

Even tribal name such as Caeracates, Caerosi and Caemani may look celtic but these were supposedly germanic groups mentioned by Caesar. In many cases it is impossible to sort out he exact etymology because we have PIE elements in germanic names which have been written down by gallo roman or british clerics. Even in the cases where they have been written down by germanics, they tend to be germanics who were taught by britions, and all at a time when precise spelling wasn't that important.

Ah, when Caesar's involved I hedge my bets for the Celts, because it's almost sure that Caesar called all tribes east of the Rhine Germans as a matter of political fact. The Caeracates, Caerosi and Caemani may in fact have been Celtic tribes, although I'm the first to acknowledge the very difficult situation of the Rhine region in Caesar's day - what was a Celtic tribe? Did all tribes or persons with Celtic names speak Celtic- or maybe already Germanic.
And yes, etymology is a very difficult matter, even though etymologists will often tell you otherwise. There's a linguist who's of the opinion that 'Badon' (famous battle) must be an English word - simply because he says they don't know any similar Celtic word... hock: [/quote]

[Redwald]

So with all those 'Wall' names; walloons, welsh, walachians, valais; it seems an awful lot of people did not find the germanic culture very attractive at all. Then there are the Slavs who managed to resist -- not to mention a large group of the ancestors of the Spanish, modern day French, Italians, etc, etc. All these groups had powerful germanic neighbours -- sometimes as elites in charge. Strange that they didn't see the 'obvious' benefits of converting to a new prestige language.

Perhaps the Anglo-Saxons were just better teachers? I wonder?


Paul