Why Not Use Stainless Steel For Segmentatas

[chris]

I have read the report titled "In defense of Rome, A Metallographic investigation of Roman Ferrous Armor from Northern Britain" and here are my thoughts.:

1. The investigation was performed in the standard way in which we would perform an investigation. Macro-etching and microscopic analysis of grain structures, wet chemistry and due to the small samples, hardness testing by mounting and polishing. The findings I think are profound.
2. Of the samples analized, the summary of findings is as follows:
a. Arm guard manica sample- steel (i.e. low carbon steel with incidental elements due to the natural inclusion).
b. Carlisle scale armor-iron.
c. Manchester chain mail-iron.
d. Newstead manica-iron.
e. Newstead shield boss-iron.
f. Vindelanda helmet-iron.
g. Vindelanda lorica-iron.

My conclusion (and it is my own humble opinion) is that based on the above analysis, the low carbon steel was very possibly accidental. This has, according to my understanding occurred periodically in ancient metallurgy. A second aspect of the study is that the iron is very pure, indicating a high degree of metallurgical skill. A third aspect is the lamination of the iron plates that seems to predominate in the samples. immagine having to hammer weld thin sheets together prior to cutting and shaping.

Finally, we can statistically conclude that although this study consists of a very small sampling centered in Roman Britain, it would be safe to say that Roman ferrous armor was iron (at least in Britain).

By the way, I heard back from the proprietor of L&M metals. He can supply cold rolled malleable iron plates in small quantities in 18 gauge. Pricing to follow.

Chris

[Tarbicus]

A third aspect is the lamination of the iron plates that seems to predominate in the samples. immagine having to hammer weld thin sheets together prior to cutting and shaping.

That's the really interesting bit. What effect do you think that would have in terms of defensive properties? Hardness combined with malleability?

[marsvigilia]

I hate to be a kill joy, but I think there has been some miscommunication. The website does list "hot rolled black iron" among it's 15 metal products. However, I noticed that they surprisingly do not list "hot rolled steel." So I called them and asked. According to the gentleman I spoke to, what they sell is the same common hot rolled that everyone else sells. It is not a special run of iron. It is just plain old steel. Whether their representative is actually correct, I obviously don't have first hand knowledge. However, I would be careful before paying for shipping, when you can get the same hot rolled at your local sheet metal shop.

The company is L&M Sheet Metal Phone #815 338-8666

Address:
13706 Washington
Woodstock, Illinois 60098

E-mail www.netwrights.com

I talked to the owner and he can supply small quantities. I asked about a few 3'X3' plates for myself and he said that he could supply them to me. I am still waiting on a reply as to 18 ga. plates and costs etc. I will post this information shortly.

P.S. Tarbicus, I sent my e-mail address to you. Did it come through?

Chris

Oops, the web site listing is not complete. Here it is:

www.netwrights.com/landm/products.html

Respectfully,

Chris

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I personaly agree with Hibernicus, as not everyone has the space or the time to constantly maintain their armour to a great standard. I live near the North sea, and iron and steel rust imediately and rapidly. I spend long periods away from home, and do not have an army of slaves or a wife who will touch up things form. Some things just look shoddy unless kept polished.

I would like to be able to have a totally authentic kit one day and hope to get it all together eventually, but this is all going to take time and lots of money. And finding the people to make it! But there is , and in my opinion, always will be, differing opinions on what levels of authenticity and accuracy are acceptable. So, seems a little flexibility would not go too far amiss. Hope my opinions do not spark any fires! As usual, I am late to the party, and probably a gate crasher to boot!

[Magnus]

Stainless can look like mild steel if you put teh right finish on it...the only reason I don't use it is because it's harder to work with.

[marsvigilia]

Steel is awfully heavy. Maybe aluminum would be ok also. And card board shields would be much lighter too. And what's so wrong with Birkenstocks? Or cool shades on a sunny day? Or umbrellas? Or wrist-watches? If the Romans had wrist-watches, they would have worn them proudly.
:twisted:

[M. Demetrius]

There you go again, Tony.

[Magnus]

That's a bit far-fetched Tony...are you trying to say that stainless isn't good to use for seggies? I'm willing to bet that it would be hard for anyone to tell the difference between two satin finished seggies, one made out of mild steel, the other stainless.

What gets me is people's strict adherance to what items were made of 2000 years ago, or how they were made, meanwhile we're living in an entirely different era with access to different materials and in about 99% of the case, working within a budget.

Is it really worth bickering over a 0.2% difference in carbon content? How about a couple % worth of tin in cupric alloys? What harm is there, if the overall impression is great, but when asked, shouldn't an explanation about "how the romans really would have done it" be adequate? Are we not there to educate?

I personally don't allow stainless segmentata in my group, but if someone has a requirement for one, who cares? If they can't get the best possible item due to some type of restriction, but they get the next best thing...does that warrant crucifiction by the Reenactment gods and their zealous followers?

[marsvigilia]

I wasn't aware I was crucifying anyone. Merely trying to point out, in my own way, that there are many lines that are drawn, what should be allowed and what not. I try be as accurate as I can, as do most people, but ultimately we all live in the world of the possible. We must balance the needs of accuracy and practicability. We must all set our own lines that we do not want to cross. For ourselves and for our groups. And sometimes we are all forced to sacrifice some accuracy.

But let's not pretend that these aren't sacrifices. That it's just as good when it isn't. And when someone points out that we've sacrificed accuracy, it's not crucifiction.

If I ever show up at an event wearing an aluminum seg and carrying a card board scutum, I expect to get a big ration of "constructive criticism". And I'll deserve it. If I get my feelings hurt and call people stitch nazis, then I'm being awfully thin skinned don't you think? If I can't or won't change, I had better change groups, change impressions, or grow a thicker hide.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

lol!!!! Cooool! Cant wait to get my titanium seg! Wil look like forge blackened iron! Just hope no one askes to touch it! :lol: :lol:

[Magnus]

I just think you blew it out of proportion a bit Tony. Going from an alloy of steel for segmentata, to aluminum is quite different, as is wooden vs cardboard scuta. My point is that for an impression to work it has to look like the real thing, with a slight grain of salt because of the modern world we live in which affects our materials and construction methods.

Were someone to point out the fact that I used wrought iron nails instead of conical shaped true roman hobnails I'd probably have the feeling that they were going overboard. It's tiny details like that which to me really don't make or break an impression, just as what kind of paint is on your scuta or the carbon content of the steel in your seggie would either.

[marsvigilia]

Blow things out of proportion?
Who me?
Well maybe a bit. But I really didn't feel I was crucifying anyone and thought that comment was also a bit heavy handed.
And who knows, if I blow out my back again I might be taking a serious look at that aluminum and cardboard. Just don't tell my optio. Shhh. :wink:

[Magnus]

HEheehe, you could always tie some hellium ballons to the shoulder guards of your armour to lighten it.