\'Gates of Fire\' By Steven Pressfield

[Tarbicus]

I've got a mate who used to take not only a book, but sometimes tea and toast to the loo as well.

[PMBardunias]

Having been in an elite fighting force, I can say there was a definitive lack of British Officer Pomp; we were more much like the what was portrayed by Pressfield for the most part... however we were extremely disciplined when it came to the battlefield or on parade.

I think you are falling into the same trap as Pressfield. Spartiates were not an elite fighting unit, they were an elite class. That they were a fighting force is very much secondary to the fact that they were the overlords of Laconia. As such we would expect, and in fact are told, that they displayed some of the behaviors and manners common to over-classes such as European gentry or Samurai.

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

Ahhh, now that makes much more sense to me.

[PMBardunias]

Ahhh, now that makes much more sense to me.

Thanks for helping me clarify. There were elite units in many states such as the 1,000 picked argive hoplites or the more famous Sacred band of Thebes.

There was the Hippeis, 300 Spartaites were could be termed an elite unit of an elite class. (Not to be confused with the Hippies, who were peace-loving and made poor hoplites- though just as dirty and unshaven).

Spartiates inculcated the type of reserve and manners we associate with Samurai, etc. This is perhaps a means of dealing with the fact that so many of your society are highly trained and well armed killers, not the place for casual insults. The young men were described as almost feminine in the way they averted their eyes as adults passed- sounds like a wolf pack.

Where things must have loosened up is within the syssitia, men's messes. This education function of this institution for young men is often wrongly overlooked in comparison to the agoge for boys. This would have been much like the more familiar Symposia of other states. Remember that the Spartans were a "nation of philosophers".

[Narukami]

Ahhh, now that makes much more sense to me.

Thanks for helping me clarify.

Spartiates inculcated the type of reserve and manners we associate with Samurai, etc. This is perhaps a means of dealing with the fact that so many of your society are highly trained and well armed killers, not the place for casual insults.

Comparing the Spartans to the Samurai as you do is an interesting notion -- I will have to bear that in mind. Thanks

Narukami

[Paullus Scipio]

I would concur with most of the above views - it is a jolly good read, even if it's inaccuracies are irritating.

I would also endorse Paul B's views that it is helpful to see the Homioi (lit: 'Equals' or 'Peers' ) as a warrior-class rather than Military Unit, like the Samurai or Janissaries, except that Homioi did not serve the Ruling Class, they were the Ruling Class, with all that that entailed !

[Senovara]

I tried to read the book two years ago, and never finished it. I couldn't get over the language ... to me it seemed wrong and out of place within the story (and to be honest rather annoying). I do understand what Pressfield was trying to do though, in making the book more accesible to a 21st century reader. I expected writing more along the lines of Jack Whyte's novels.

Will probably give Tom Holland a try since I was disappointed with Pressfield.

[sitalkes]

Hi, my girlfriend loved "Gates of Fire" but I thought it was just adequate, and could not understand the fuss made about it. Also, I couldn't believe some of the mistakes - I particlularly remember the bit where the soldiers washed themselves with soap!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The Greeks were pretty hygienic, so what would be the problem with soap? Although I don't recall that passage.. :lol:
Perhaps the fuss was because it was the first attempt in a long time, and it actually put you in the mind set of the killing field!
It certainly brought the sounds smells and feels to life for me!
When i visited Greece as a tourist for the first time, it was a great experience trying to find the locales of Pressfields books, and discovering for my self what was fact and fiction......and what a blurred line he makes...and he does make a disclaimer to actual historical writing....
If we want to find uncritically historical accuracy we should look to the ancient writers for that.. :oops: :oops: oh dear, we can't even do that, apparently :lol: :lol: :lol:

I say it is a great novel, and so are his other books...Tides of War and Last of the Amazons!!

[sitalkes]

IIRC Soap was invented by the Germans, and until they learnt how to make soap, the Greeks and Romans covered themselves with olive oil, then scraped it off with a strigil (or got a slave to do it). Historical novels should aim for a high level of accuracy on things like that as it was a distinguising part of their culture. It helps the "otherness" that take you back into their time period and totally involve the reader, so they can forget their real world (temporarily).

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmm, I know they used olive oil, being Greek would be ashamed not too!
But I can't say a minor detail like that takes anything from the book. And who's to say thay did not use certain plants too for their cleaning effects?
I know it certainly did not register on me , and I read it a couple of times, and was immersed in the 'story' I would hate to be in a position where every piece of fiction was ruined by minor inaccuracies!
The whole effect of the book was good!
I wonder how many Greek hoplites were inspired by books of that ilk to look further into the real history! I know it inspired me to start reading again, so it can't be that bad, in my mind! :wink:

[sitalkes]

Yes, I agree that nit-picking should not be the major criteria for damning the book - it's part of the fun of reading it in fact, to pick out such errors. When I said I think the book is adequate, but nothing to rave about, it was due to other factors which I don't remember now. Actually if you read too much history I think it does reduce your enjoyment of such books as you know what is going to happen next. It gets really bad when you read a fantasy story and the characters wonder into a new country and you can immediately recognise which ancient/medieval culture is being plundered to characterise that country/town/island/continent. "Oh, so we're in Rome now." I think the best and most original such plundering I've read is the combined Aztec/Japanese culture used by one of the nations in Raymond Feist's "Magician" series.

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

Well said Gaius... The main precept of a book for me is did it take me there? Was it able to temporarily suspend my reality? Was it hard to put down? Did I empathize with the characters? Did I envision myself as one of them? etc...

For me, any shortcomings were overshadowed by the writer's magic in the telling of the tale. I have read it twice in 2007 and it still holds magic for me... even my wife enjoyed it and would like to visit Greece now to see the actual lay of the land.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Cheers Quintus! I still harbour plans to move to Greece, but Italy looks nice too, and Austria, ............. :roll:

And yes , Magician was a real favourite of mine back in the eighties and nineties (or was it just the nineties.... :roll: :oops: )
That would make a great movie series! If done correctly......

[Senovara]

I know it inspired me to start reading again, so it can't be that bad, in my mind! :wink:

Ah well, as long as it interested you in reading again! I don't think much of Pressfield's writing style, but if a book gets someone into reading again, hey, it's a good thing. Not enough people read books nowadays, in my opinion.