Greek Horses

[spyros]

The horses of Achileas

And when they saw that Patroclus was dead, / who'd been so strong and young and brave, / Achilles' horses started weeping, / their immortal natures anguished / by this work of death which they beheld. / They tossed their heads and shook their long manes, / stamped their feet upon the ground, and mourned / for Patroclus whom they saw lifeless – levelled – / spirit lost – a lump of cheapened flesh – / defenceless – without breath – / returned from life into the Void.

Zeus saw the tears of the immortal / horses, and he grieved. "At Peleus's wedding" / he declared, "I should have been less thoughtless; / better if I hadn't given him my poor unlucky / horses. What could they expect down there / among the wretched human race Fate uses for her sport? / You, whom neither death nor old age wait to trap, / are tortured by such fleeting tragedies. Men tangle you / within their torments." – But the tears of / these two noble beasts were spilt for / the eternal tragedy of death.

Kavafis the Alexandrian

Horses were an integral part of ancient Greek culture, and the Greeks were among the first to design a model for the "ideal" horse. This ideal was based on proportional relationships of body dimensions, resembling those used to define ideal human form in Greek art, and similar to those used by horse breeders today. The importance of the horse to early Greek society is mirrored in the portrayal of horses on the frieze of the Parthenon in Athens, Greece.
Nearly 6,000 years ago, the warriors of the Greek Peninsula established themselves as superior horsemen. Two thousand years ago, the famous Athenian cavalry leader, writer and philosopher, Xenophon, much of whose treatise on equitation is applicable today, praised the “gifted Greek horse.”
Thessaly and Ilys in Peloponnese were famous for their horse. Even today in those regions some horses remain from that time.
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/hors ... /index.htm
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/hors ... /index.htm

The Greek breeds have been crossed with Arabian and English stock but still retain their ancient look, sidewise step – better for rocky Greece I guess – and small size.

This is a catalogue that I have compiled of the greek breeds today
Adravida or Ilys
Thessalian
Cretan
Pierian
Skyros pony
Pindos pony
Peneia pony

It very likely that the Greek breeds are descendants of the Barb horse. Although this is still speculation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyros_Pony
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindos_Pony
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peneia_Pony
http://www.travel-to-kefalonia.com/page.php?page_id=18
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/hors ... /index.htm
http://www.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_arti ... 04_1281501 (in Greek)
http://www.tiho-hannover.de/einricht/zu ... t/1594.htm
http://www.tiho-hannover.de/einricht/zu ... t/1193.htm
http://www.tiho-hannover.de/einricht/zu ... t/1595.htm
http://www.tiho-hannover.de/einricht/zu ... pt/806.htm
http://www.tiho-hannover.de/einricht/zu ... t/1591.htm
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/news/ ... ?aid=38936
Some photos http://www.ellinikazoa.gr/_english/page2.htm

And of course Xenophontas
On the Art of Horsemanship
http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi- ... ection=1

[hoplite14gr]

Leukandi grave finds give indication of horses that they are about 2/3 of the size of a modern horse.
Most experts belive that it was during and after the persian wars that the Thessalians started having big horses.
Some surviving cavalry equipment gives this indiaction:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/hoplite14 ... pg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/hoplite14 ... pg&.src=ph
The real issue for maintaining a good big horse was just finaces.
Only Thessaly, Beotia, "trading Athens" and of course Macedonia/Thrace could afford big horses.

Kind regards

[Anonymous]

I'm very interested in this thread, but I couldn't find any pictures in the links I examined. Do you have any? I think I have a pony that could act the part.

[hoplite14gr]

Photos here:
http://www.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_arti ... 04_1281501

[conon394]

hoplite14gr

But the Lefkandi evidence is contradicted by the evidence from Knossos and Lerna which but average hoarse size around 13-14 hands at the withers. A suggestion of 2/3 size seems a bit extream.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the pics, Stephane. Can you name the types in order, please?
The small bay jobs look just like my friend's pony, Jasper. I'm sure they're not 13/14 hands - he isn't. The others look somewhat like our Highland Ponies, which are about 13 hands at the withers. We have another pony called Comet, who is mad. If we can ever calm him down, he might pass for one of the smaller types.

[hoplite14gr]

hoplite14gr

But the Lefkandi evidence is contradicted by the evidence from Knossos and Lerna which but average hoarse size around 13-14 hands at the withers. A suggestion of 2/3 size seems a bit extream.

Based on evidence, most Bronze Age horses were not large.
The Lefkandi finds point to the fact that by 11th century BC, high nobility at least owned larger horses (imported?)
Most horses were small even in classical Era. Horse was seen just as an extravagance except perhaps by the Thessalians. Thessalians were the first to "increase size" as the horse trapping found in Larissa indicate.
An Philip the second after sizing the Paggaio goldmines could affort to breed larger horses.
What I think is that ancient Greeks were aware of large horses, the real issue is who many could afford them and at what period.

Images in the Greek webpage'top to bottom
1st pic : Pindos race
2nd pic: Peinia race (Early Thessalian)
3rd pic: Kretan race (possibly not the original Bronze age though)
4th pic: Skyrian poeny (thought to be very common in ancient Greece)
5th pic: Ainos race (The smaller version on Pindos race)
6th pic: Thessalian race (Later Thessalian)
7th pic: Andravida race (thought to be late Hellenistic to Byzantine periode)
8th pic: Zakynthos race (apearing in the 18th century A.D.)

Kind regards

[spyros]

Just to understand the cost of a horse in southern Greece. The second highest class of Athenians were known as Hippis (Riders - Knights) referring to their economic ability to have a war horse (one). Their yearly income was 300 to 500 Medimni (1 medimnos equaled 1 ½ bushel of wheat).

During Pericles’ time the Athenian army could theoretically field 1000 strong cavalry force (100 horsemen from each of the 10 tribes)

Unlike the hoplite the horseman would receive 1 drachma daily both in war and peace for his horse fodder. A 5th century BC drachma had a rough value of 25 dollars (estimated with 1990 dollars)(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drachma ). Later one 1 drachma was the daily wage of an unskilled worker.

Also he would receive a special “salary” called Katastasis to cover the expenses for his horse. Unfortunately why don’t know who much that amount was.

It could be considered high enough though because the City, to diminish the possibility of fraud, held every year a Dokimasia (Testing) for the horses and the riders. The horses that would fail were branded with a wheel, meaning that they were only good for draught. Also the Taxiarches of the tribes would strike from the lists of the eligible for recruitment the names of the successful riders and their horses so that they would no longer be called up to serve as hoplites.

[spyros]

I finally managed to find some photos of some Thessalian horses. As a breed they are not very imposing or majestic like a Friesian for example. But having ridden both I can only say that every horse to its country. In a Greek path I wouldn't exchange the surefootnes of a Thessalian for the world. You will notice that in most cases they look down like a donkey, their leg bones are heavier and their hip – knees configuration is longer. All to make them more suitable for the Greek terrain.

http://www.amfikaia.gr/images/zoa_images/02.jpg

Background a mule http://www.amfikaia.gr/images/zoa_images/30.jpg
A model Thessalian http://www.amfikaia.gr/images/zoa_images/35.jpg
Filly, Foal and donkey for comparison. Not a pureblood Thessalian http://www.amfikaia.gr/images/zoa_images/31.jpg

And this Dias, he leaves in a farm near my village in Euboia. He is very gentle but if you ride him don't let him eat any fig leaves, it's an ugly sight aftewards.:roll:
http://www.petalo-cafe.gr/components/co ... 176072.gif
http://www.petalo-cafe.gr/components/co ... 395048.gif

[manda]

This a very interesting topic for me, since I love horses.

The barb horse, comes from the Iberian horse (along with the Andalusian, Lusitano, Alter-Real, Sorraia pony and Garrano pony and distantly to the Friesian and highland pony)

Horses weren't very tall, they were probably 13 - 14hh and this was due to the lack of feed for them. And also that people were much shorter then they were today. And only after importing larger stock, from Iberia or the early Friesian would have increased the size.

Its possible during the war when Sparta fought Athens, alongside the Persians they hired Iberian mercanaries who may have included cavalry.

spyros, the 'A model Thessalian' picture you've shown reminds me very strongly of an Iberian horse.

Excuse my lack of sources, -smacks hand for self discipline-

[spyros]

This picture shows two typical horsemen of the 10,000. A heavy horseman in typical Athenian panoply (Note his Attic Petasos Helmet), in athenian service he would probably wear a black short cavalry cloak and carry two xyston instead of one. And a light thracian horseman.

[hoplite14gr]

Various archeological finds betray extensive commerial roots and trading networks. Horses were an expensive commodity and horse breeding an art.
Most horses would be "smalish". The question is when and how much in number started the bigger horses appear. I lean towards the Thessalians since the could afford them and they could sustain them.
Pics 2 and 6 in my previous posting
And certainly there catafract units with big horses in the hellenistic period.
Athens had good finaces in classical era and could also aford "war horses".
But it seems that not always since the Beotian cavlary became more formidable than the Attic cavalry.
One reason why the Thessalian cavalry was formidable was that is contained in its ranks trooper with something more than poneys at least at the later clasical period.
Spyros the petassos is possibly "Thessalian" and in combat an "attic" or "beotian" helemt would be worn.
Kind regards

[spyros]

The barb horse, comes from the Iberian horse (along with the Andalusian, Lusitano, Alter-Real, Sorraia pony and Garrano pony and distantly to the Friesian and highland pony)

Horses weren't very tall, they were probably 13 - 14hh and this was due to the lack of feed for them. And also that people were much shorter then they were today. And only after importing larger stock, from Iberia or the early Friesian would have increased the size.

Its possible during the war when Sparta fought Athens, alongside the Persians they hired Iberian mercanaries who may have included cavalry.

spyros, the 'A model Thessalian' picture you've shown reminds me very strongly of an Iberian horse.

Excuse my lack of sources, -smacks hand for self discipline-

Hi Manda and welcome. I'm not an expert as this is a new subject for me. From what I’ve learned from reading and from my riding instructors the Greek horses probably are descendants of the Barb but this is still under dispute.
Apostolidis et al has made an as possible thorough research on the subject. But due to the large influx of foreign breeds during the Middle Ages (Arabian, and western Europeans’ breeds) and the lack of any record keeping of the pedigree of a horse it can be confidently said that no Greek breed survived intact from the ancient days. Of course in same cases as in the Adravida breed where a Sultanic firman protected the breed and only on the 20th century there was any breeding with mostly English stock we have a clearer picture.
The problem is that except from the Skyros pony, that due to international publicity is well and good, most of the local breeds, horses, dogs, cats, cows even chickens face the danger of extinction. The sample is very small for a thorough research.
Thankfully in recent years some individuals have taken upon themselves to safeguard the Greek breeds. Amfikaia farm is a prime example.

Spyros the petassos is possibly "Thessalian" and in combat an "attic" or "beotian" helemt would be worn.
Kind regards

Hi Stefane. My comment about the “Attic Petasos Helmet” was based upon an attic funeral marble lykinthos showing a cavalryman exactly is in the artwork minus the beard, and also on the cavalry helmet discovered in the tomb of Madytou str, Athens.(Osprey EL 007 – The Ancient Greeks pg 19).

[manda]

Thank you for the welcome.

Its true, the Skyros pony I think is now endangered and that there has been problems with the breed because of inbreeding. And out-crossing with other breeds too, this is the way many horses run the possibility of becoming extinct.

[spyros]

Hi Manda. Actually the Skyros pony is no longer endangered. There are many farms, both in Greece and abroad that now hold a sufficient number of them to breed true. This is not the case with the other Greek breeds. Also I’m shamed to report that the Greek state with the possible exception of a few prefectures does next to nothing.

The following pictures were taken in the area of Aspropyrgos, near Athens, they were published in the Greek media a few weeks ago. Thankfully due to the outrage they created some up to 50 horses, mules and donkeys have found a safe heaven in nearby farms and their owner is now held under arrest. Unfortunately that is the exception and not the rule in such cases. They might shock you.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m121 ... 279314.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m121 ... 279313.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m121 ... 279312.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m121/arolfp/1.jpg

I apologize for drifting a bit out of topic.