First attempt @ hinges and closure loops

[sillious saurus]

It depends...I'd look at how functional they're going to be with all the dings and dents. If they'll still work, and won't pose any danger to you or the leather strapping (from sharp edges, or tears), then use'em. File and hammer out any serious flaws, then try them out.

Just say your seggie was built during a time of war...a lot of fittings and plates would have been built quickly and by apprentices, so the finishing touches may have been left off.

I'm sure your stuff is spot on.

Cool. You know it's funny, but as I acquire more tools and learn more, the stuff I make gets better and better. I think what will wind up happening is when I am done with this one, I will give it to my brother and make another better one for me.

[Matt Lukes]

I have a number of original Corbridge cuirass fittings as well as lots of images and while they all are clearly hand-made- i.e. slots aren't perfectly centered, edges aren't always perfectly straight, symmetry isn't perfect and so on- they're definitely not crude or look like they're made by people who don't know what they're doing.

A few toolmarks are okay, but for the most part fitting should look fairly nice. Toothmarks from shears are definitely out as the tool definitely isn't period, so those definitely have to go, and to be honest, I don't see a lot of file marks either. Certainly they need to be pickled and polished to remove the red oxidation and black burn marks- the Romans did polish their brasswork, so a post-annealing look wouldn't be right. Flattening the parts is also proper- the plate portion of lacing loops, for example, will have to be riveted to a flat armor plate, thus should itself be flat.

Handmade and imperfect DEFINITELY does not equal crude, so you do have to take some care not to errantly go a little too far- just as you do to avoid making things too perfect

Another factor is one of functionality- the loops of lacing loops cannot have sharp edges, as those would damage the leather laces. Thus it's important to round those edges off; the majority of original pieces actually have a round cross-section, however as you saw in one of the images I sent, there were types with flat loops- those had to have had the edges rounded somewhat, and that's likely the best thing for yours. The edges of the slots of hinged pieces cannot be jagged as this could interfere with the motion of the hinge- and so on.

Post a picture of your bits as they are now Kevin and I'm sure we can point out things to do, if any, and those we feel you can just leave.

[Matt Lukes]

Cool. You know it's funny, but as I acquire more tools and learn more, the stuff I make gets better and better. I think what will wind up happening is when I am done with this one, I will give it to my brother and make another better one for me.

The same thing has and continues to happen to me- doubtless it does to all of us who make our own stuff :wink:

[sillious saurus]

OK here they are, these are a couple that I field off the aviation snip marks. I really dont know how these got so pitted, but feel free to be honest--just remember this is my first attempt. Do you think these are too beat up? I know a few have teeth marks on the flat surface where I was holding them with the needle nose pleirs a little too vigorously.

[Matt Lukes]

The loops look far better and yeah, it's easy to get marks like you have from pliars on annealed brass. They're not something I've ever seen on an original piece, but they're not so bad given that this is your first attempt at making this stuff. If you wanted, you could always sand them down somewhat with emery cloth or even hammer them a little. I'd say if nothing else you should do the former to at least smooth them out a bit.

The one detail I've never seen as a form are the cut off back end corners- unfortunately, there's really nothing you can do about those now short of trimming off the edge which would be as difficult as trimming the loops and probably isn't worth it. Especially if you're already thinking of trying again at some point :wink:

It does look like the hook eyelet plates could do with some hammering around the edges to flatten out the ridges from cutting (?)

A few more recommendations I have for using the snips- first it's FAR easier to cut annealed thick brass so if you didn't this time, you should definitely anneal the metal before you cut the pieces. Also don't cut all the way to the end of the snips' jaws- stop before you get there as completely closing the jaws introduces those raised sections you have on the edges of the eyelet plates. If you stop short of the tips, the cut remains clean. If you have to hold a piece with pliars, wrap the jaws with duct tape to cover the teeth and sharp edges, or get some cheap pliars and grind the teeth flat and use that. This will reduce the marring you got this time.

[sillious saurus]

The loops look far better and yeah, it's easy to get marks like you have from pliars on annealed brass. They're not something I've ever seen on an original piece, but they're not so bad given that this is your first attempt at making this stuff. If you wanted, you could always sand them down somewhat with emery cloth or even hammer them a little. I'd say if nothing else you should do the former to at least smooth them out a bit.

The one detail I've never seen as a form are the cut off back end corners- unfortunately, there's really nothing you can do about those now short of trimming off the edge which would be as difficult as trimming the loops and probably isn't worth it. Especially if you're already thinking of trying again at some point :wink:

It does look like the hook eyelet plates could do with some hammering around the edges to flatten out the ridges from cutting (?)

A few more recommendations I have for using the snips- first it's FAR easier to cut annealed thick brass so if you didn't this time, you should definitely anneal the metal before you cut the pieces. Also don't cut all the way to the end of the snips' jaws- stop before you get there as completely closing the jaws introduces those raised sections you have on the edges of the eyelet plates. If you stop short of the tips, the cut remains clean. If you have to hold a piece with pliars, wrap the jaws with duct tape to cover the teeth and sharp edges, or get some cheap pliars and grind the teeth flat and use that. This will reduce the marring you got this time.

You know, by the time I am done with this I think I will just have to give YOU credit for buidling it. hahahaha. Now you said as far as pits to use emory cloth or hammer them, how will hammering remove pits? Do I just use a regular hammer? Also, you said "The one detail I've never seen as a form are the cut off back end corners." Do you mean the end how i snipped the corners to round them up a bit? If thats not what you meant, can you explain a little more--I didnt follow. If you are talking about snipping the corners like I did, I didnt do that to all of them. i think that would be correctable--I might have to make 3 or 4 new ones if thats the case.

[Matt Lukes]

:lol: Hammering will flatten the surface a bit and actually cave in the edges of he marks- it redistributes the metal. A regular hammer will be fine so long as you have a good solid anvil surface- something steel- even another hammer held in a vice will work fine. Just make sure you strike flat- you don't want to introduce semicircular hammermarks in place of the pliar teeth and edge marks. The plate portion of real lacing loops was most often flattened considerably, so would have involved quite a bit of hammering- thus the absence of toolmarks such as you got.

Yes, I mean the snipped off corners- lacing loops either have more-or-less sharp corners (maybe a touch rounded with a file but only just so they're not super-pointy) or completely round in some styles that taper from loop to end. If you've only done a few this way, I would suggest not doing the rest like that and then maybe trying to fix these ones by snipping off the edge. I'd say a good average size rectangular lacing loop plate is about 1cm wide by 3cm long. Some tapered styles are a bit wider and rather longer, but if you're just going for a plain rectangle one, these are the dimensions I'd recommend. I've attached a picture of a couple I made. Making them by hand there's some variation of course- 1cmx3.2cm, 1.3cmx2.8cm etc.

[sillious saurus]

Ok and then for color--I need to pickle them to remove the black stuff, and then polish them--like brasso, right?

[Matt Lukes]

Steel wool would be better to remove the annealing oxidation, but pickling them in straight table vinegar for 10 or 15 minutes is necessary first. Don't worry if all the black doesn't come off either- whatever's left after pickling will polish away easily. Brasso's more for re-polishing.

[Matt Lukes]

You could probably file down the edges of those first few loops instead of trying to cut them- just place a coarse file (mill bastard, for example) on a flat surface and run the edge of the loop back and forth on it- you only need remove a few mm of material so it shouldn't take long. a bit of roundness on those corners isn't a big deal, you just don't want them obviously clipped like the corners of the steel plates are.

[Magnus]

Kevin, those marks in the loops aren't too bad...you can simply say they're from your enemy's spear and sword thrusts.

Brasso will work fine to remove any oxidation or corosion if it's not too deep. I prefer autosol once the piece is done, since it's a very mild abrassive, but I've used brasso before and it does the same job.

Steel wool as matt suggested, or even ScotchBrite pads will work as well. I use scotchbrite on my steel plates to give it a nice satin finish, and it's great at removing surface corosion.

EDIT - you may want to check out the closest auto-body store, sometimes they sell small pliers with flat faces for use on body panels and such. The flat, smooth face doesn't leave much behind in the way of marks. Or you can always grind flat a pair of old pliers.

[Matt Lukes]

I thought of the battle damage or age marks too Magnus, but since no originals I can find show such these marks and surely at least some of those are used or were in battles, I thought it might look like more of a cop out than being realistic

Have you ever used Brasso to remove annealing oxidation? Or just to clean fittings that have become dull? I haven't which is why I suggested just steel wool.

[Magnus]

No, as far as I knew you can only use the brasso for basic polishing...they won't change the discolouration from heating back to the normal brass colour.

You know, I find it odd that no lacing loops have damage marks on them...you'd think that the center of mass would have taken some hits, but I guess it depends on how long they were able to keep their scuta during battle.

[Tarbicus]

You know, I find it odd that no lacing loops have damage marks on them...you'd think that the center of mass would have taken some hits, but I guess it depends on how long they were able to keep their scuta during battle.

Probably explains how come there can be a bunch of differently shaped fittings on a single seg. It gets damaged replace it.

[Magnus]

Yeah. I'd be interested to see how much of a pounding they can take...I imagine once the loop part gets smushed or knocked off, that's it. So perhaps it wasn't so much that the brass got cut, rather it got deformed.