promise to be oneof the last of these kind of posts-rome hbo

[Ebusitanus]

Barbarians... I guess they are Gauls, with axes, and Marcomani helmets or ??? The Gauls had mail, helmets and shields, spears and swords, this seem to try and make them like generic barbarians... oh well

I was of the impression that mail was something worn by the Galic elites not the run of the mill conscript or volunteer gathered for that 250.000 strong relief army.
Slaves from Alesia...who knows where those slaves com from? Might have been from 10 miles away looted Oppida.

I´m the first on to find minutae incorrect but overall its a HUGE step forward and something I´m very grateful HBO has done to begin with. One can watch I Claudius re-runs just so many times :wink:

All in all your nitpicking is a bit to critic

[Caius Fabius]

I suspect that you know that I was attempting to answer Woad Warrior's request for more specifics about why we did not accept this HBO Rome series as an exact copy of the Roman World at the "Time of Julius Caesar". If you are offended by the nitpicking, just remember why it is being done, to help another reader in his quest for knowledge.

I enjoy many Roman themed films, having 30+ in my collection, and I know that many of them are very badly done. That does not mean that they are unenjoyable. Sometimes I even have films that I can't understand the language, just because they are about Romans.

I usually watch films with a notepad, but only for interesting bits. When I am writing a review, I am usually more 'tongue in cheek', as they say.

Be well

[Matt Lukes]

Nitpicking is fun Although I do admit sometimes I long for the days when I was rather more ignorant... still when it comes to good productions like Rome, I like to watch things a couple of times- once I've gotten past the first, flawed viewing, I can set aside the criticisms and just enjoy the show. I'm really bummed that my local Blockbuster Video only has the first season- now I'm left hanging wondering what happnes after Caesar and Cleopatra's baby is born! Well okay, not really, but I do wonder what happens to Verenius and Pullo!

[Narukami]

Okay WoadWarrior, I just went and got this series on DVD. I watched the first show and took about 8 pages of legal pad notes, but I'll make them smaller and simpler here.

The helmets, shudder, the helmets. They are about 200 years too early, actually coming into the historical record about 200 years later than Julius Caesar's armies. The actual type of helmet would be mainly the various types of Montefortino Helmets, with possibly some early coolus types. For pictures of the real artifacts, try this.
[url:3sz392cf]http://www.freewebtown.com/italica/italic_military/general_italic/armor/helmets/montefortino.html[/url]
and this
[url:3sz392cf]http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Helmet-montefortino.html[/url]
There are no cute little rings on top, and most hat a neck protector like the bill of a backwards baseball cap. You don't see this in the HBO helmets.

Metal Transverse crest box, again on a helmet from the wrong period, no metal crest boxes have been found/published, so they as just a guess.

Wrong shields. The rectangular scutum comes almost 30-60 years later. The Oval shield is okay for a centurion, again maybe the grandson of the people being portrayed in the film.

.

Nice analysis Caius. Nitpicking -- yes, but your response has the detail that Woadwarrior was asking for. Besides, I liked the information you packed in there, could be a possible essay here on Hollywood Rome.

And speaking of Hollywood...

I think that is exactly why the HBO production team selected those helmets and shields that are obviously from the wrong time period.

You see that error, as do many other members of the Forum, but to the vast majority those very helmets and rectangular scutum mark these soldiers as Roman. Almost everything Hollywood has every given us in terms of Ancient Romans tells us that they used helmets and shields like those in this series. (I guess we should be happy they are wearing mail instead of segmented armor as they did in Spartacus, another film I do enjoy.)

Had these Romans been wearing the correct helmets and using the correct scutum I'm not sure most viewers would recognize them as Romans, and might wonder just why they look so "odd."

"Well into my adulthood, most of what I knew about ancient Rome was learned from Hollywood. ...In my woeful ignorance I was no different from many other educated Americans who have passed from grade school to the postdoctoral level without ever learning anything sensible about Roman History." Michael Parenti, The Assassination Of Julius Caesar page 4.

All that aside, it is still a fun Sword & Sandal Soap Opera. As much as I love I Claudius, Ebusitanus is quite right -- one can re-watch it on disc only so many times.

Thanks again Caius. Points to you for the work you put in on the analysis. (I still think you should consider an extended essay on the historical faults of HBO's Rome. I think it could serve a useful purpose, though I fear that it will fall on deaf ears in Hollywood.)

:wink:

Narukami

[Matt Lukes]

Perhaps- although I suspect it's more in the middle somewhere between keeping the Hollywood thing and wanting realism. They get some little details and ignore some big stuff so they're clearly not going for significant realism despite the billing. I would think those in charge decided on the Ridley Scott philosophy- 'can you prove they didn't do (have) x,y,z? If not, I'm using it.' (paraphrased justification for the fire arrows and pitch 'bombs' in the battle at the beginning of Gladiator after being told by historians and archaeologists that there was no evidence of such weapons ever being used in battle on that scale).

A damn shame really- perpetuating inaccuracies... then again they're hardly in a vacuum on that count...

[Niedel]

Narukami,

the Romans in Spartacus actually don't wear segmented armor, but muscle armor (even the legionaries). I wonder whether that decision was made because by then they know segmented armor would have been totally wrong, I doubt it, though (the helmets etc. are strictly 1st to 2nd century A.D., though).

I also think that more often than not the decisions about costuming/armor etc. are also dictated by what is there, i.e. what the studio already has in stock. I am absolutely positive that the shields used in "Rome", for example, have been in Cinecitta stocks ever since "Cleopatra" and have been reused over and over again.

One amusing piece of armor that keeps on reemerging in movies is the armor worn by Marcus Aurelius in the Gladiator battle scene (sort of a . It is exactly the same armor worn by Peter O' Toole in the Masada miniseries and by one of the Monty Pythoners in Life of Brian (and also was used in some Italian peplum movies of the sixties, whence it probably originated).

See here:
[url:2zz3p88u]http://www.kinoweb.de/film2000/Gladiator/film04.php3[/url]

Here:
[url:2zz3p88u]http://www.wunderlin-online.de/pictures/film_main/0021_2.jpg[/url]

and here:
[url:2zz3p88u]http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00004RNHU/302-5749759-8070445?v=glance&n=301050[/url]
(click on the smaller pics to show larger pics)

The odyssey of an armor, sort of amusing, if you ask me.

[Narukami]

Niedel,

Right you are!

I had to go back and look at my laser disc of Spartacus and yes indeed -- leather armor.

Somehow, in my minds eye, I saw the legionaries at least in segmented armor. Where did I get that idea from?

From this site...

http://www.conteco.com/TheStore/RomanEm ... nt2400.jpg

http://www.conteco.com/TheStore/RomanEm ... nt3400.jpg

Conte has the rights to make "toy soldiers" for several Kirk Douglas films including Spartacus. Their figures look great, even though they are wearing armor and helmets from a much later period.

So I stand, or in this case, sit at my keyboard corrected. :oops:

Also, I think you are correct in that the show's production designer probably did make extensive use of items already "in stock" at the costume shop, but I am under the impression that the helmets in HBO's Rome were made for this show. Perhaps some one knows for certain or has seen these helmets before in another film.

Points to you for the correction Niedel.

:wink:

Narukami

[Caius Fabius]

The costumer designer says on the DVD, that she went around to museums in Rome, and then designed the helmet to be the most authentic, and had copies made in India.

[john m roberts]

For me, one of the saving graces of the series was the scene where Servilia inscribes her curses against Caesar and Atia on sheets of lead. It was perfectly accurate. those curse sheets have been found all over Roman sites, usually rolled up and deposited where the victim would have to step over them. It was a wonderful piece of verisimilitude.

[Narukami]

The costumer designer says on the DVD, that she went around to museums in Rome, and then designed the helmet to be the most authentic, and had copies made in India.

Well, her hard work and effort paid off as the series won an Emmy last night for Costume Design.

Thanks for the confirmation Caius.

Narukami

[Praefectusclassis]

Ahhh! Well, she probably went to the Museum of the Roman Civilization in Rome EUR. They have interesting early 20th century reconstructions there. :lol:
Jeeez, everyone knows that Rome itself is not the best place to find out about military stuff... :wink:

[Ebusitanus]

Actually about the helmet IIRC on the documentary with the DVd it said how she had some designer make the outfits on paper (She showed the pictures) and then went to some armorer in Rome who made the samples she then took to India to reproduce.
They go to great lenghts to explain how deeply they studied everything before doing it and with all the cash thrown in there one would think that a miserable Osprey booklet or even a Connolly volume would have fixed much of it.
The part on the interactive comments during the episodes where they inform us all proud how right their got their "Montefortinos" makes my teeth grind.

[Niedel]

Thanks for the laudes, Narukami!
And the helmets were definitely made specifically for ROME (just like the chainmail armor too). I have never seen those before, and I think I have seen most ancient Rome movies/series there are [Blush], except for many silent movies and some obscure Italian peplums from the 50s and 60s.

[Narukami]

Jeeez, everyone knows that Rome itself is not the best place to find out about military stuff... :wink:

Back in the late 70's when I spent a summer in Germany visiting my parents (my father was at the 7th Army HQ in Heidelberg) we went Volksmarching through the German countryside every weekend, or so it seemed. There were castles everywhere, and some had very impressive collections of armor in them. A couple of times I even saw Roman legionnaire helmets. Now I have no idea if they were authentic and I do not remember what type they were, but I do remember being impressed that any of these helmets existed at all.

Though you make the point with a wink, I think you are quite right. More is to be found on the edge of the Empire than in its heart. I only wish now that I had the wit then to know what to look for. No doubt there was much more there, but I could not "see" it.

Narukami

[Praefectusclassis]

It's exactly the point I wanted to make David, for the imperial era at least.