The waistscarf?!

[Martin Wallgren]

In some sources and pictures (Ospray for example) you sometimes see a broad (around 12") wasitband or sash that sits under the baelta! What´s that and when was it in use?

M

[Robert Vermaat]

A cummerbund.
Check this thread:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

[Graham Sumner]

In some sources and pictures (Ospray for example) you sometimes see a broad (around 12") wasitband or sash that sits under the baelta! What´s that and when was it in use?

Hello Martin

If you have seen an Osprey book with a waistsash in then that is probably my 'Roman Military Clothing 1' which should have given you most of the information you require. The idea for a waistbelt or fascia ventralis was I think first proposed in an article by Ubl and explored further by Peter de Haas co founder of the Gemina Project (NL) in Mike Bishop's ARMA bulletin. Mike Bishop has also posted something about the waist belt in the thread Robert indicated. Further to this, a recent Vindolanda tablet (Inv. 1528C) records that a soldier paid to have his ventralem repaired and re-stitched.

Graham.

[Martin Wallgren]

Thanx for the answer guys!

Fascia Ventralis is then the name I´m going to use in the future. I made one of woolcloth the other night It is in natural grey and the same fabric as my tunica. I made it 10 feet long and one feet wide. Last night I went out to the pell (sandbag) with my rudius and the subarmalis, tunica, hemata and Fascia Ventralis on in that order and tryed some rutines. With the FV on I actually felt more stable and the weight of the maile was lessened. In adition to this I tried with the help of a friend and a spearpoint some of the armour abilitys of the FV. And because it is wrapped a few times and packes everything under it toghether it stoped the penetration of the spearhead realy good. I could point out that the spearhead is sharp and of a general Migrationperiod style. I think it is clearly a piece of textile armour.

Hope some to hear of your experiences of it.

Martin

[Tarbicus]

It's good back support :wink:

[Ti.Horatius]

Salvete Omnes,

Late in the game, but I'm looking at obtaining a fascia ventralis. Is there any details on standard/average length or width or other constructions details?

Gratias Ago Tibi

Optime Valete

[M. Demetrius]

And does anyone know exactly how the final free end is secured? (Where's my Roman Military Clothing 1 Book??)

[Tarbicus]

I just tuck mine under the waistband to finish it off, usually at the side or back.

I've got a linen one from Armillum, but also have various wool scarves, as well as cut up kilim rugs for extra stiffness. It all depends on what colour I want :wink:

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

was the waist band worn in barracks dress, or also under the segmentata?

in my view it might have been purely decorative and to prevent the cingvlvm from sliding down when not wearing armour.....

M.VIB.M.

[Tarbicus]

was the waist band worn in barracks dress, or also under the segmentata?

in my view it might have been purely decorative and to prevent the cingvlvm from sliding down when not wearing armour.....

There are plenty of frescoes and mosaics showing the fascia ventralis being worn by civilians, sometimes green in colour. They seem to be manual labourers, so I suspect it was a very practical garment for back support. The benefits of a 'girdle' were well known to the ancients, especially charioteers who wore them to keep their internal organs in place due to the incredible shocks the body could take on a chariot without any kind of spring suspension (Tutenkhamun wore one apparently, and every image of a charioteer shows a proper girdle being worn). There is a definite reference to a 'girdled tunic' in the Terentianus papyrii, and I personally suspect it was for manual labour and back support, which would fit perfectly with the non-combat roles of soldiers.

[Marcus Caecilius Avitus]

Our group uses the fascia both for dress and undress kit. I agree with Jim's comments about the back support but it does a little more to boot. When worn under armour it bulks your waist slightly and allows you to tighten the cingulum onto the armour so that the weight of thelower lames is born on your hips, spreading the load nicely. Also under armour, it is a good way of being able to blouse your tunic without getting uncomfortable rubbing from a cord or leather belt.

Out of armour, we follow the example set by the RMRS and have 'whites' with a fascia. This is basically your sunday best or 'pulling gear'. In this form fascia also provides the required cingulum support.

Below is a picture of our recent funeral procession where you can see the guys in their whites.

[M. Demetrius]

Also, a byproduct of the sash is to protect the tunica from unwanted stain from dyed leather. I have a nice off white tunica with red clavi and some indelible brown leather marks around the waist. Usually, they don't show, but now and then, I notice them. Bothers me. A sash would have taken that mark and made it unnoticeable, and my tunic would be lacking the brownish waist decoration.

[arklore70]

I have made one, but at a length of 350 cm and width of 30 cm, as described in Roman Military Clothing I, That seems a bit too long. Where do we get the idea on length from? When I wrapped mine around, it felt very bulky and it really stood/projected out. Under hamata, I felt even more bulky.

I think the back support idea might be more of a modern benefit, since the bulk of us, and I am not trying to be insulting here, do not have the core muscles built up like a legionary or auxilia would.

Modern troops wearing 75 pounds of IBA (this include basic load of ammo, 3 liter camel back, deltoid plates, arm guards, throat guard and collar, ESAPI plates, first aid pouch, radio, batteries, NVGs, etc..), initially complain of sore lower backs until they build up those muscles through prolonged wear and modified physical fitness programs.

A back brace would inhibit the development of those muscles.

In addition, with something that thick, wrapped that tightly, has anyone noticed if it puts additional pressure on the abdomen, and thus restricts breathing, especially with a elevated heart rate?

On the flip side, all the extra wraps would definitely be a subarmalis of sorts, and definitely reduce the blunt force trauma from a blow.

v/r
Mike

[Tarbicus]

I think the back support idea might be more of a modern benefit, since the bulk of us, and I am not trying to be insulting here, do not have the core muscles built up like a legionary or auxilia would.

They're clearly seen in representations of manual labourers.

And don't forget seen also in a combat context: http://www.answers.com/topic/borghese-g ... -r2-c2-jpg

[Marcus Mummius]

If I didn't wear one I wouldn't be able to get all the folds and excess fabric of my tunica under control to fit a segmentata over it...