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That looks like the Argos helemt that is with bell cuirass in Nafplion Museum.
Very "Kegel-like". It is probably 7th Century B.C
The reconstruction may well well be a Thessalian from Felena.
What is the source Gioi?
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Quote:Very interesting helmet. Any idea what those doodads on the sides might be? Attachments for side-plumes or tails, maybe?
This pic of the type found in Ordona (neck guard and cheek guards missing) shows that these attachments could have hold horns and ears of bronze sheet.
These "Kegelhelme" are dated c. 700-675 BC
(H. Born - S. Hansen, Frühgriechische Bronzehelme, Slg. Axel Guttmann Bd. 3, Mainz 1994).
Greets,
Decebalus/Andreas Gagelmann
Andreas Gagelmann
Berlin, Germany
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The idea of the "solar warrior - champion of light" was very important in in the Archaic period. The bull was seen as solar symbol from the bronze age and horns adorned helmets of the time though they are not well known to the general public.
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Athenea Promakhos have a helmet fitted with bull's horns and ears, but theirs is a Corinthian. The fittings appear to be of a type suitable for attaching horsehair crests - so that this would then be a triple-crested helmet. I'm not saying this rules out the horns, rather that either might have been fitted.
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Well "totemic" influences cannot be ruled out but. but by that time the fratria or the city state patron god's symbol had started making his appearance.
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Quote:hoplite14gr:2t2or2ig Wrote:That looks like the Argos helemt that is with bell cuirass in Nafplion Museum.
Very "Kegel-like". It is probably 7th Century B.C
The reconstruction may well well be a Thessalian from Felena.
What is the source Gioi?
Kind regards
Quote:john m roberts:2t2or2ig Wrote:Very interesting helmet. Any idea what those doodads on the sides might be? Attachments for side-plumes or tails, maybe?
This pic of the type found in Ordona (neck guard and cheek guards missing) shows that these attachments could have hold horns and ears of bronze sheet.
These "Kegelhelme" are dated c. 700-675 BC
(H. Born - S. Hansen, Frühgriechische Bronzehelme, Slg. Axel Guttmann Bd. 3, Mainz 1994).
Greets,
Decebalus/Andreas Gagelmann
I think the source is that book that Decebalus post...its not he? :?
I dont have tha source Stefane
Regards.
The horse-head helmet is also said to be found in Ordona.
The photo of it is from: H. Pflug, Griechische Helme geometrischer Zeit, in: Antike Helme (Mainz 1988) but the same photo is also in the above mentioned book by H. Born.
Apart from this there are two more known helmets of this type which bear horse-head crests: one from Ruvo (museo Jatta) and another one in the Ex-Guttmann collection (AG 445) both pictured in the book from Born.
Greets,
Decebalus/Andreas Gagelmann
Andreas Gagelmann
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Hermann Born`s book seems to be still available (published by Verlag Philipp von Zabern, Mainz).
You will find some offers when you Google it.
Greets,
Decebalus/Andreas Gagelmann
Andreas Gagelmann
Berlin, Germany
Gaius Decius Aquilius
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Those are great pics, Gioi. They are a bit better than the ones in Hoffmann's Early Cretan Armorers, a copy of which I recently found. There is one helmet brow decorated with an almost "Nordic" looking serpent. A breastplate very similar in shape to the one above, also has the same serpent decorating the lower edge of the pectorals. The incised design on both is so close that they may be from the same shop or smith. The helmet was found at Axos, and the breastplate is from Olympus. (I am painting the inside of my Boeotian with that serpent, BTW. Lined the inside with dark red thin leather, last month. The interior rim I am painting with lines like found on the edges of the mitras from Afrati and elsewhere.)
The helmets you show, have been described as "ceremonial" in some sources, because the bowls are so thin, and made in two pieces. However Hoffmann's analysis of the metal disputes that. The metal is harder than found on the mainland, and he believes the production technique to be more advanced than elsewhere at that time, circa 640. The embossing seems to be only possible with the three piece construction. Evidence of this advanced metallurgy is found in numerous pieces from Olympus that are almost certainly Cretan in origin, and seem to be exported to some degree. Snodgrass believes that Crete was originally influenced by Cyprus (as was the Greek mainland, as evidenced in the Kegelhelm), but developed it's own tradition. I went on about this in a previous post, anyway. Snodgrass sees the Cretan helmets as an adaptation of the Corinthian, but Hoffmann thinks it is a seperate type.
This is a bit OT, but I really wish I could get over my fear of flying, which is a sometimes expected reaction to being shot down and then crashing. I have my own GIS mapping setup, and would love to work in the Cretan Archaic. The U of NC has a project in eastern Crete where the helmet crest you posted early on, was found. To this end, I am starting to get my private pilot's license this fall, through a special university program that goes through multi-engine ratings. If I can pass the Class II physical. My hearing is typical for a helecopter crewmember, due to rapid altitude changes and the vibrations from the tranmission. Curiously enough, my veteran's classification allows me to fly space available on any military flight for free.
Anyway...
Ralph I.
New Mexico: Land-of-the-no-European-Archeology
Gaius Decius Aquilius
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Quote:Mr. Ralph... are you talking about this cuirass with serpents? 
No Sir, that one is one I have never seen before. The one I refer to is in the Hamburg Museum fur Kunst und Gewerbe. The serpents are much narrower and have elongated heads. There is also an "Athena" kneeling on each side of the abdomen, wearing an "Insular" helmet and holding a omphalos type shield.
PM me your e-mail and I will send you a scan.
Ralph
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really beautiful armour!
gr,
Jeroen Pelgrom
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I would rather have fire storms of atmospheres than this cruel descent from a thousand years of dreams.
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Quote:The helmet that you email me if Great!....PS: I guess is a third helmet of this type he?
& that serpent look more like a draco! :lol: ... I guess I know now where the later draco comefrom....the cuirass has the same one...
Gioi
There are four of this type in Hoffman. Since H. was published in 1975, there is a possibility that more are known, but not published, or not well publicized. There is mention of several fragments, possibly of Cretan workmanship, found on the mainland.
There is one, the most widely known Insular, also published in Hoffmann. Two more are known, as previously mentioned above.
One of the helmets looks, at fist glance, like a mid 3rd century Roman type, complete with embossed ears, and closing over the chin. The skull is missing. From Dreros.
I will ask the Moderators... Can we scan and post from a publication if we give the full citation? Or will we rot in Hell because of it, and get in trouble besides?
Ralph Izard
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The helmets may come from the grave of an extreamly wealthy aristokrat or even a succesfull mercenary (i.e. good looter)
The guy is displaying his total camlness facing death because he has been an intitate on many Mysteries of the Era.
Rodax marks him as an Eleysina initiate and so is the "scaly" decortation at the base edge of the helmet.
The decoration above the brows marks him as an initiate of the Asklepeios mysteries of Epidavros.
Hermes Psychopompos (Mercury Soul-guide) and the twin snakes representing Kastor and Polux protect his soul during the passage
The triangular decoration marks him as a member of a clan with proven land holdings from the Bronze Age
Ceremonial helmet they say  P (bad words curses)
It was an object of psychological warfare actually.
Ralf good luck with your pilot certifications.
Kind regards
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The helmets may come from the grave of an extreamly wealthy aristokrat or even a succesfull mercenary (i.e. good looter)
The guy is displaying his total camlness facing death because he has been an intitate on many Mysteries of the Era.
Rodax marks him as an Eleysina initiate and so is the "scaly" decortation at the base edge of the helmet.
The decoration above the brows marks him as an initiate of the Asklepeios mysteries of Epidavros.
Hermes Psychopompos (Mercury Soul-guide) and the twin snakes representing Kastor and Polux protect his soul during the passage
The triangular decoration marks him as a member of a clan with proven land holdings from the Bronze Age
Ceremonial helmet they say P (bad words curses)
It was an object of psychological warfare actually.
Ralf good luck with your pilot certifications.
Kind regards
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Nothing of the sort Gioi.
The initaites of the ancient mystries were so good in preserving their knowledge that we practicaly know nothing about them.
I feel safer for the "heraldic" rather than "religious" info interpretation.
Simply 3 nutters took the footsteps of G.H. Chase after 100 years and we are still stumbling on things.
Kind regards
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