El Ninio & post Roman Britain

[ambrosius]

– in fact, Hoffmann traces several of the unit of the ‘Tractus’ to the Rhine area.

Aw shucks... everything has to be Germanic, for you, now
doesn't it, ArVee? :lol:

No, the refugees mentioned
by Gildas in the mid 6th c. as having escaped the Anglo-Saxons by
sailing to Gaul (Brittany/Armorica) between 450 and 500AD were not
necessarily all from Wales. For a start, we're told that refugees from the
East moved West and that refugees crossed the sea to Gaul. There is
no way to prove a scenario where the Eastern refugees simply took
the places in the West vacated by the Western refugees who went to
Gaul.

Eeehhm. Who is telling us where that refugees from the East moved West? What scenario is that? Who is painting it? Not me, I’m sure.

No, it was the same bloke; Gildas. :wink: He says that the
Britons in the East flee West and some Britons flee to Gaul (by which he
means Brittany). There's no way of quantifying the number of Britons going to Gaul who came from East or west. But the logical thing would be that it was the Eastern Britons escaping West who kept on going across the Channel, once they'd found a friendly port (ie one beyond the reach
of the Saxon pirates they had just escaped from.

So we need to be specific about which Britons were sailing across to Brittany in which century, for a start. Indeed we must? So, who is saying what about the origins of Brittany?

Well we can't say that all the British refugees arriving in 5th
c. Brittany came only from Wales (or even, mostly so) and as Agraes
points out, there were several (three?) waves of migration, so we need
to be clear about which one and when.

Then there’s the saints. So far, they form the reason for the supposed links of Brittany to Wales. Most of the saints of Brittany come from Wales. Then, there’s the kings. The pedigrees of most early Breton kingdoms claim heritage from Southern Welsh kings.

Sure, that has no bearing on 5th-6th c. refugees, but it has bearing on the origins of Brittany. Most British seem to have come later rather than earlier, but what we can trace points to Wales and the southwest, not the East.

Yes, but the point is, these cultural links involvong saints and
kings are from the 5th c. onwards. And from the 5th c. onwards, the only
part of Britain still 'British' was Wales & Cornwall. So of course the
only appearance of contact between Brittany and Britain will be with
Wales & Cornwall from then on. But that masks any migrations which
took place previous to the 5th c. And linguists can say what they like
about no contact before the 5th c. (which we know is wrong, due
to the 3rd c. and 5 th c. migrations) but I can think of at least one
linguist on Arthurnet who would disagree.

So it seems, rather, that most Bretons would have been descended from British refugees escaping the East of Britain. I still have read nothing whatsoever about any refugees from the East going to Brittany and settling there, apart from what you say must have happened. :wink:

Gildas says it. Refugees from Eastern Britain moving West
aren't going to displace the Britons in the West. They'e going to be the
ones who carry-on and sail to Brittany. The western Britons aren't going
to up-and-leave when they're not under threat, yet, and give up their
own land to the refugees from the East. Would you? 8)

So, Obi-Wan, the pupil has become the master!" 8)
?? Master of what? And why? Nice of you to style yourself as my pupil, but so far your grades have not really improved!

Master of the sword, of course. I was your pupil once,
ArVee, once, but not any more. And if you look down and see how
you've just been sliced in half by my lightsabre (or was it a spatha...?)
that's surely worth at least a B+ :lol:

Feel the power of the Force

Darth/Ambrosius/Mike[/quote]