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04-18-2003, 03:44 PM

...anyone else see this page yet?; 
 
www.totalwar.com/community/unit1.htm 
 
OK -this brings up some issues; 
 
1. Samnite Gladiators - seems to be pretty much a "fantasy" unit. 
2. Spartan Hoplites - well this unit sounds good anway. 
 
In thinking about units, the start date and the traditional tech tree - I'm really wondering how all of this is going to work. 
 
Related Point = In 264 BCE Carthage, Rome, Macedon, Syria, Egypt (at least) were well established states. CA isn't going to limit them to some primitive peasants, javlinmen at the start are they??? That would make NO sense from a historical standpoint and not be too good. 
 
Again, what I think is wrong w/ the system is - it's too "gamey". CA has an opportunity to break w/ the past and give us a deeper political/economic/strategic/tactical experience on a larger scale. The hints regarding the strategic map give us a glimpse of exactly that. 
 
- I don't want to wait 5 years (20 turns) to field significant forces. The powers I listed above already had them in 264 BCE. 
- I don't want to "tech. up" to train different types of units - this just does not make sense from a historical perspective. 
 
Just my opinion of course - I am a grognard at heart - and the inclusion of a Samnite Gladiator UNIT doesn't give me much of a comfort level at this point. 
 
Still it's a bit early to draw any conclusions. I'm sure we will know so much more after E3. 
 
Comments?? 
 
Regards, 
Barkhorn.

Jeroen Pelgrom · 04-22-2003, 08:44 AM

hmm, looks nice. 
 
On the other hand, why do all these gamecompagnies always want to field gladiators in Roman battles? After all, in the real life it only happend a few occasions (AD 69 for example). 
Ok it looks cool, but a few thousand legionairs also do the job (and are far better then some Samnite gladiators). 
 
but, can't wait for it to arrive..

04-23-2003, 12:03 AM

The units shown on that totalwar page depress me a bit, and I am a solid Mediaeval TW fan. 
 
There is just no historicity in them. Gladiators as a unit type? Rubbish. 
 
Spartan hoplites in 264 BC? Give us a break. That's 200 years out of synch with history. The figure shown is based I think on a very famous bronze figure of a Spartan, 5th Century. 
 
Even the Macedonian hoplites used the 25 foot sarissa which was a totally different system to the 8 foot hoplite weaponry used in Classical Greece. 
 
I also hope that you don't "start off" with peasants and work upwards. Whilst this was OK in the Dark Ages/Mediaeval era, it is no good at all for third century BC Mediterranean nations.

Jeroen Pelgrom · 04-23-2003, 06:06 AM

well, gladiators were used a couple of times in combat (Tacitus in Histories mentiones them, otho vs Vitellius if i recall). As i previously said, for some reason the Gamecompagies always want to field gladiaors in a battle. In the game Praetorians its the same. 
 
guess we have to wait for the complete picture,

04-25-2003, 09:30 AM

Whilst gladiators were used a few times of emergency, no way they would have used arena kit, nets, tridents, round bucklers, fancy helmets etc. 
 
They would have had standard Joe Legionaire kit. 
 
I think so anyway

Jeroen Pelgrom · 04-25-2003, 10:05 AM

Tacitus reports that soldiers of Vitellius had trouble in fighting the gladiators of Otho because these gladiators were completely armoured. This probably refers to the hoplomachi, who were heavily armoured, i.o.w. the gladiators fought in their own uniform/ arena kit.

04-25-2003, 11:04 AM

mmmmm. OK. 
 
But whilst there may have been individuals fighting in full arena kit.......whole units? They were by definition individual fighters, one on one, how the hell would you make them fight cohesively in a formation? 
 
No way Hose

Jeroen Pelgrom · 04-26-2003, 06:28 PM

unfortunatly, tacitus does not mention how the rest of the 2000 gladiators are dressed (which help Otho). So this is pure speculation. I don't know any other book which mention gladiators in battle, perhaps some of the others here. Interestingly, Tacitus does mention that the gladiators were used in the previous civil wars (Hist, II-11). 
 
I have read somewhere that the gladiators fought in loose formations on the battlefield (can't remember where). 
 
If i look at the text of Tacitus, i get the impression that gladiators weren't very usefull on the battlefield. The 2000 gladiators of Otho were rather quickly defeated by the Germans in Vitellius army. Although they were good fighters in the arena, i doubt their effectivness on the battlefield - especially against battlehardened legionairs. I don't know how Roman generals viewed gladiators on the battlefield, perhaps as nothing more then better armed militia, not very dependable.

04-28-2003, 08:48 PM

...the game will not be the utmost in historical accuracy. 
 
However, I really think it will be fun, fun, fun in the same way that S:TW and M:TW were. And - for me at least - I will buy regardless as I am hooked on what I've seen so far. The trailer was nothing short of jaw dropping. 
 
BTW, another unit has been added to the site = "Preatorian Cohort". Again, not very historical perhaps for 264 BCE but, hey, you want 'em - you know that you do. 
 
Finally, there is rumored to be a major update - many more shots - coming out after the E3 Expo in late May. 
Regards, 
Barkhorn. Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=barkhorn1x>Barkhorn1x</A> at: 4/29/03 3:29:05 pm

05-06-2003, 07:44 PM

New Unit available; 
 
Greek Peltasts: 
Peltasts are lightly equipped, fast moving skirmishers who wear down enemies with a hail of accurately thrown javelins. Their strength lies in their ability to move through broken or rough terrain, and stay away from threats. Once their javelins have been thrown they fight with spears, although they also carry straight swords and small shields (the "pelte" that gives them their name). As a result, they can fight quite effectively against other units of skirmishers but are vulnerable if caught in the open by light cavalry. 
 
Same link as above. 
 
Regards, 
Barkhorn.

05-09-2003, 02:49 AM

Spartan Hoplites are OK - the Spartans retained hoplite equipment until they changed to pike a la Macedonian pike phalanx in 225BC - other Grek states had mostly abandoned the Hoplite for Thureophoroi and then gone to pike, although some never really adoped the pike - staying with Thureophoroi.

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