07-25-2006, 07:27 AM
How about none of the above?
Was the Penteres superior to either the Trieres or the Tetreres, and would it thus necessarily have been built in large numbers across the Mediterranean world after 499 BC.
I think one might well argue the 5 was either or something of a failure in it original incarnation, or simply not necessarily superior to a 4 or a 3 or both. The very fact that it was often largely rejected by the leading skilled naval powers of the 4th (and even the 3rd century): Carthage, Athens and Rhodes would seem a notable point. The Athenians also seem to have favored the 4, adding far more of them to their fleet up till the Lamain war than 5s, and their contribution to Demetrius’ victorious left wing at Salamis (on Cyprus) was 4s as well. Even the Romans when they decided to field a fleet based of maneuver used 4s, not the 5s they used with the corvus.
Given the success Syracuse had with frontal ramming against the Athenians in 413, I seems possible to suggest that Dionysius’ 5 was designed for frontal ramming (as per W Murray) and to reduce the need for skilled oarsmen. In small numbers or in an open water battles the original 5 might have been rather vulnerable to a well crewed 4 or 3.
Another thing to consider is that very few states appear to have been in the business of building many new hulls unless they had too. Corinth had not much a navy to speak of in the 430’s and her great building effort was something of a one off even she never really repeated on her own. The Megaran 3s were in poor shape at the start of the Peloponnesian wars. Megara was not even building new 3s, let alone experimenting with new ship designs, and that seems likely to me to be the typical state of affairs for most Greek cities. That is unlike say Athens or Carthage; naval hulls were probably more of a one time investment rather than something to be built, graded and disposed when to old in an ongoing process of investment and spending.
Edit:
But how far to trust Pliny, since he cites Thucydides for naming the Corinthians as inventors of the 3, but I don’t think anyone is ready to support Thucydides as really meaning more than just the Corinthians were perhaps the first Greeks to build Trieres.
Was the Penteres superior to either the Trieres or the Tetreres, and would it thus necessarily have been built in large numbers across the Mediterranean world after 499 BC.
I think one might well argue the 5 was either or something of a failure in it original incarnation, or simply not necessarily superior to a 4 or a 3 or both. The very fact that it was often largely rejected by the leading skilled naval powers of the 4th (and even the 3rd century): Carthage, Athens and Rhodes would seem a notable point. The Athenians also seem to have favored the 4, adding far more of them to their fleet up till the Lamain war than 5s, and their contribution to Demetrius’ victorious left wing at Salamis (on Cyprus) was 4s as well. Even the Romans when they decided to field a fleet based of maneuver used 4s, not the 5s they used with the corvus.
Given the success Syracuse had with frontal ramming against the Athenians in 413, I seems possible to suggest that Dionysius’ 5 was designed for frontal ramming (as per W Murray) and to reduce the need for skilled oarsmen. In small numbers or in an open water battles the original 5 might have been rather vulnerable to a well crewed 4 or 3.
Another thing to consider is that very few states appear to have been in the business of building many new hulls unless they had too. Corinth had not much a navy to speak of in the 430’s and her great building effort was something of a one off even she never really repeated on her own. The Megaran 3s were in poor shape at the start of the Peloponnesian wars. Megara was not even building new 3s, let alone experimenting with new ship designs, and that seems likely to me to be the typical state of affairs for most Greek cities. That is unlike say Athens or Carthage; naval hulls were probably more of a one time investment rather than something to be built, graded and disposed when to old in an ongoing process of investment and spending.
Edit:
But how far to trust Pliny, since he cites Thucydides for naming the Corinthians as inventors of the 3, but I don’t think anyone is ready to support Thucydides as really meaning more than just the Corinthians were perhaps the first Greeks to build Trieres.
Paul Klos
\'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird\'
\'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird\'
