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Rome vs Japan
#46
the boshen, or restoration wars?
-Jason

(GNAEVS PETRONIVS CANINVS, LEGIIAPF)


"ADIVTRIX PIA FIDELIS"
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#47
Quote:
Narukami:npcllr8f Wrote:Quite so, and in fact, that is exactly what the Japanese did.

Well, it took them about 40 years, rather than 5, with assistance by foreign nations competing for position and influence. Also circumstances of that battle favoured the Japanese quite a bit. Still quite a remarkable feat after all. Unfortunately it was probably one of the factors that fired their feeling of racial superiority over all the other Asian nations Undecided

Quote:They restored the emperor to power (the Meiji Restoration of 1868)

Officially yes, but actually the emperor was still quite restricted in what he could do politically. For the time of the Meiji Era it was an oligarchy made up of (by origin) rather low-level samurai of a few select daimyates (han in Japanese). The emperor one might say was used as a rallying point for building a nation out of a couple of islands with many independently (and selfishly) thinking fiefdoms.

Also lets not forget the last big uprising of the samurai during that period in Kyushu, 1877, led, somewhat unwillingly it seems, by Saigo Takamori (once a member of said oligarchy himself), which was crushed by the new government with its new conscript army. Conscription at that time had become universal, i.e. including Japanese of all classes (something which was hotly debated within the government for quite some time and was one of the factors for Saigo's falling out with the other leading politicians). So you might say that the samurai were finally beaten by their own farmers and (even worse ;-) ) ) merchants.
Of course, putting it like that is something of an exaggeration/sinplification, as always many other factors contributed to the outcome, logistics, weaponry, tactics/decisions at the right or wrong time etc.

As for who would win, samurai or legionary, I'd say flipping a coin would be a valid answer for that question ;-) )

You are correct -- I was over generalizing for the sake of brevity. :oops:

I do think that the Japanese already possessed a deep-seated feeling of superiority over other Asian nations -- their conduct of the war in Korea referenced earlier in this thread is a case in point. The Russo-Japanese war helped to establish them on the world stage, and probably served to confirm their belief that they could beat the Western powers at their own game.

The Meiji Restoration was, once again, a case of the samurai using the emperor to achieve their own ends. They were supported in this endeavor by rich chonin, who saw a golden opportunity to become even richer. I think it is important to remember that by this time many (perhaps most) samurai were not involved in military activities nor even well trained in the martial arts. They were bureaucrats and politicians. When the Tokugawa failed to repel Perry and his Black Fleet the stage was set for the shogun’s downfall and the rise of a new clan or faction. Using the Emperor as a rallying point (as you correctly point out) gave them the legitimacy they needed.

One of the ministers in the new government was from the old and illustrious Ii clan (the famous Ii Red Devils who wore red army, hence the name). Samurai opposed to the modernization programs assassinated him.

Saigo Takamori is a fascinating character. There is an excellent book out, perhaps you have read it, Nobility Of Failure: Tragic Heroes In The History Of Japan by Ivan Morris (ISBN: 0374521204) one chapter of which deals with Saigo and the rebellion. Many of the heroes most revered by the Japanese are those who lost. (Yoshitsune, the great general from the Gempei Wars 1180-85, is highly regarded by the Japanese. Hunted down by his jealous brother, the Shogun Yoritomo, it is rumored that Yoshitsune escaped to the mainland where he changed his name to Genghis Kahn. Confusedhock: :wink: )

Once again I am impressed by the depth of knowledge members have not only about Ancient Rome, but also about history in general and military history in particular.

Points to you sir. :wink:

Narukami
David Reinke
Burbank CA
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#48
Avete Omnes!

Hmmmm Roman vs. Samurai...two VERY interesting cultures indeed!

I think that...the most important factor when comparing and analyzing different period and cultures is the human element. For instance what were the 1st century Romans like i.e: culture, beliefs, DISCIPLINE, etc. vs these same qualities behind the Samurai and their era.

As far as weapons are concerned...well technical descriptions and formations aside...it also goes back to human element i.e. the person behind the weapon. I mean I have seen how a man of smaller stature weilding a pair of southern Chinese butterfly knives has been able to disarm a stronger man weilding a pole. So I wouldn't put past a first century Roman with extensive experience to handle himself pretty well againt a Katana. Mind you I can't say who will win because in the end it's anyones guess. I am pretty sure that the Roman legionaire would have practiced extensively on fighting once the shield was lost in battle. One of the reason why I admire and have been interested in the Romans and their civilization is for their practicality. But these are just some random thoughts at the moment.

Heeeey...that brings me to a question for you guys...what about the PUGIO? would the Romans have use this in conjuction with their GLADIVS in a fight? I mean I am a tad familiar with the 15th Century Espada y Daga and also the Philippine MArts use this to an extent. So...would the Romans have been familiar with such?

Good discussion so far... Smile
aka: Julio Peña
Quote:"audaces Fortuna iuvat"
- shouted by Turnus in Virgil\'s Aeneid in book X just before he is utterly destroyed by Aeneas\' Trojans.
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#49
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falx


you know as i was researching my legions role in the dacian wars i came across the dacian and thracian equivalent of a katana (daito) and naginata, the falx. seems these things slashed through scutum in a single blow and they used the curve of the blade to apply a hooking and pulling tactic that caused the romans to make some adjustments to their armor, was it possible being rather quicly rendered shieldess, the legionare would have adapted to a multiple weapon style as in two gladii, a gladius and a pugio, a more melee use of the pilum? anyone more informed on this matter, id like your thoughts please

as for the human element give a legionare a katana as well as a samurai and i still give it to the samurai, heres why- the romans would have ill skill using a long curved blade, the requisite technique to effectively cut with a katana. now give a samurai a gladius and a roman the same and i say the legionares odds improve, not much, but some, heres why, the samurai have used the wakizashi and other short blades to thrust so they have a comprehensive skill set also the irimi or entering, the base practices indicative of aikido and aikijujutsu at the time their concepts existing in yawara and oshikiuchi, teach many circular movements against such typical tactics putting the opponent in an almost futile position, ive used it effectively in several encounters myself and on one occassion come up with the dunce's weapon he wanted to stick me with, a rather lengthy "buck" knife...and no he wasnt a legionare or a samurai and neither am i just saying, trying to impress apoint, strength and agression fall to grace and calm when technique is honed and properly applied.


id like to learn traditonal gladius tactics so i can ply them to shiai in the future, and also cause i want ot get involved in re enactments and such






whatever the evidence, point to counter point, yes it is sadly only speculative, it would have come down to rome ruling the rest of the world and probably leaving the samurai alone on their island, sailing over there into tsunamis and the harsh seas and such would have been enough of a deterent not to mention the resulting conflict after such a nautical not so good time
-Jason

(GNAEVS PETRONIVS CANINVS, LEGIIAPF)


"ADIVTRIX PIA FIDELIS"
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#50
Ave,

So it is safe to say that in a one on one the sanurai will win, but in a group fight the Romans have the advantage. I have found all of your posts interesting and informative. I must relay this to my friend.
"I fear no enemy for the Legion is my strength. I fear not death for my strength is eternal."


Ben Geraci
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#51
in the inevitable chaos of war macro cosim becomes micro cosim, and war is reduced to those precious few seconds of crossing swords with another INDIVIDUAL, however given the right general and an effective command and signal, sufficient discipline and what would require tremendous morale, i could forsee a possible victory for the legion or a devastating defeat, all speculative and situational, entertaining and thought inspiring none the less

ive learned alot and been promted to research a good many leads through all this,... good thread and good input everyone
-Jason

(GNAEVS PETRONIVS CANINVS, LEGIIAPF)


"ADIVTRIX PIA FIDELIS"
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#52
Hi Narukami,

thanks for your answer!

Quote:I do think that the Japanese already possessed a deep-seated feeling of superiority over other Asian nations -- their conduct of the war in Korea referenced earlier in this thread is a case in point.

you may be right there, although, as you know, the Meiji Period added China to the other Asian nations in this respect, a country which, though maybe dimishing (cf. kokugaku), was long thought of as Japan's cultural teacher.

Quote:The Russo-Japanese war helped to establish them on the world stage, and probably served to confirm their belief that they could beat the Western powers at their own game.

You probably know it, but a very good book here is Russia Against Japan, 1904-1905: A New Look at the Russo-Japanese War by J. N. Westwood

Quote:Saigo Takamori is a fascinating character. There is an excellent book out, perhaps you have read it, Nobility Of Failure: Tragic Heroes In The History Of Japan by Ivan Morris (ISBN: 0374521204)

Ahh, I remember it, it is many years since I had it last in my hands, time for rereading it, perhaps ... thanks for reminding me about it!! Also interesting are the books by Shiba Ryôtarô, he wrote quite a bit on the Meiji Restauration and its main characters (though I doubt those have been translated :-( ( )

Quote:l one chapter of which deals with Saigo and the rebellion. Many of the heroes most revered by the Japanese are those who lost. (Yoshitsune, the great general from the Gempei Wars 1180-85, is highly regarded by the Japanese. Hunted down by his jealous brother, the Shogun Yoritomo, it is rumored that Yoshitsune escaped to the mainland where he changed his name to Genghis Kahn. Confusedhock: :wink: )

A good thought, yes, I think you are right here. The same rumors came about concerning Saigo Takamori of course, too.

Quote:Once again I am impressed by the depth of knowledge members have not only about Ancient Rome, but also about history in general and military history in particular.

Well, for me, I have to admit that I have a M.A. in Japanese language, history and culture and taught especially Meiji period stuff for a while :-P P

Quote:Points to you sir.

Favour returned for your interesting and thoughtprovoking postings :-) )
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#53
Martin,

Thank you.

An MA in Japanese -- no mean feat that. Having taken several Japanese language classes in school (to little gain or benefit I am sad to admit :oops: ) I know how much work is required. You come by your erudition the old fashioned way -- you earned it.

What I do find remarkable is just how many members here have an interest in both Ancient Rome and pre-modern Japan.

No I am not familiar with Westwood's book but will seek it out. Like you I find time is the enemy now. So much to know and so little time left.

Actually, right now I am watching the 1962 film of Chushingura by Inagaki. A great film that, to my mind, captures the spirit of Japan both in the story itself and in the way it is told.

Narukami
David Reinke
Burbank CA
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#54
i think lovers of rome and the ancient mysteries are in general lovers of the warrior tradition and seekers of greatness in all its facets. i am fortunate to have found friends here, many of you if not most more learned than i, but my love and devotion and thirst for that same knowledge no less, i thank you knew friends, i salute you!
-Jason

(GNAEVS PETRONIVS CANINVS, LEGIIAPF)


"ADIVTRIX PIA FIDELIS"
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#55
I've argued about this with many many ppl, all crazy about anime, and I agree that a Roman legion would beay Samurai anytime, but in a duel the Samurai would win
Mike - life is extremely busy nowadays Sad <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt="Sad" title="Sad" />Sad all sleep, eat, and school Sad <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt="Sad" title="Sad" />Sad
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#56
As Samurai re-enactor, Kendoka, Iaidoka, naginataka and katori shinto ryuka I would have to disagree... The Samurai armies would have defeated any Roman legion due to their prowess in battle, ambush tactics and zealousness, combined with their utter disrespect for their own life.

A well forged Katana or Tachi would simply chop through scuta, pila, helmets, body armour, as well as the supreme archery skills would have a devastating effect on the formation of any legion.....

not to mention the brilliant assasination techniques used by the Ninjas, when killing off high Roman officers.............

Bushido has survived longer than any Roman doctrine.

anyway it is a nice antachronism to think about a clash between Samurai and Legionaries!

TENNO HEIKA BANZAI!

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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#57
Quote:As Samurai re-enactor,
Uh oh Big Grin

Quote:The Samurai armies would have defeated any Roman legion due to their prowess in battle, ambush tactics and zealousness, combined with their utter disrespect for their own life.
And exactly what is there in that list that wasn't displayed by the Romans?

Quote:A well forged Katana or Tachi would simply chop through scuta, pila, helmets, body armour, as well as the supreme archery skills would have a devastating effect on the formation of any legion.....
You've obviously not read up on the latest research on Roman plate. Besides, what guarantee was there that the Japanese swords were of this 'supposed' quality. Many more samurai in the field, means many more swords to be made, means a plummet in quality.

Quote:not to mention the brilliant assasination techniques used by the Ninjas, when killing off high Roman officers.............
Which could leave the centurions in charge, thus increasing the likelihood of success.

Quote:Bushido has survived longer than any Roman doctrine.
What? "I want to be rich, so let's fight as many as we can and take them for all they're worth!" Sounds like a somewhat age-old and consistent doctrine to me.

Quote:TENNO HEIKA BANZAI!
S.P.Q.R. :wink:

Big Grin
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#58
Uh oh Big Grin

EEEEEEEH KA !


And exactly what is there in that list that wasn't displayed by the Romans?

utter disrespect for their own life. in ANY situation!


what guarantee was there that the Japanese swords were of this 'supposed' quality. Many more samurai in the field, means many more swords to be made, means a plummet in quality

Well............ I would look into the remaining Japanese pre-Shin-gunto swords dating from about 700 AD to 1760 AD and read up on them... also battlefield relics which have been found at Sekigahara and numerous other battlefields have proven to be carefully made. Do not forget that the Yari, and naginata wielding footmen which made up the bulk of any samurai army were NOT! Samurai!

By the way... you talk about the new research in Roman armor plate but forget the terrible havoc the Falcata originally caused, leading the Roman military to put crossbars on their helmets and wear Manicae and ocrae during battles with the Dacians.....

Which could leave the centurions in charge, thus increasing the likelihood of success.

Centvrii would be picked off in the same manner as higher ranking officers, also to some extent by battlefield Ninjas.


What? "I want to be rich, so let's fight as many as we can and take them for all they're worth!" Sounds like a somewhat age-old and consistent doctrine to me.

That is not at all a Roman doctrine, its a universal doctrine older than rome. you might say divide and conquer is..... which has nothing to do with bushido for that matter.


S.P.Q.R. :wink:

i'll give you that one.... Tongue


M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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#59
yes, tarbicus said everything very well, and Marc, you underestimate the Romans, obviously the Romans knew how to fight because their empire stretched from Britain, through lots of Europe, the Middle East and the medditeranian coast of africa, you never saw a Japanese empire that big, the Japanese were too focused on killing each other, and from what I found out the Segoku Period which has many famous warriors from Japan was in the 1500's so it took them a lot longer to become skilled enough to kill each other. also as Tarbicus said, the katana's quality in mass production would decrease therefore not being able to do anything against the Roman shield, as for their archers, ever heard of the testudo? and the Samurai's leather armor would be a lot less resistant to the Legionary's lorica segmentata, basically a flexible platemail, and then there's the other issue, Roman legions were of massive numbers. then there's also the matter of the Scorpio Ballista and such.
Mike - life is extremely busy nowadays Sad <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt="Sad" title="Sad" />Sad all sleep, eat, and school Sad <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt="Sad" title="Sad" />Sad
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#60
aboutmass production......... look above....... and read.......

then you say:

Samurai's leather armor.................

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHHHH???????????

I think you still need to learn a lot on Samurai Armour..... it was made of
metal laced together by silk...

Samurai swords were made of a high grade steel. which the Romans never invented....... and they couldnt, since the conditions of forging swords, and the folding and tempering techniques are so intertwined with the japanese environment, it just cant be copied outside of japan. That also is the reason why for instance Hanwei and other modern sword makers can come only to about 50 % of the original quality of japanese swords.

The japanese were not that focused on killing each other, but simply were not interested in begoming a big empire after two consecutive attempts to conquer Korea, in which they won, but found it too much fuss to stay....

The sengoku no jidai was a period in which Japan was totally unstable, and which saw the warring factions battling each other, and the emperor.. Please read up on this period, try any book by A.J. Bryant.

Samurai armies also reached massive volumes during the sengoku jidai, and armies of 100.000 plus were not uncommon, though they consisted of about 50 families at any given time, which also quarreled.... they were not standing armies as the legions.

Also, there was no use for ballistae and scorpii in Japanese society since castles were made of wood, not stone. also the Japanese georgraphical makeup of the country does not at all make Scorpii and ballistae interesting. siege towers were built, siege works too, but on a totally different level.

that is why a clash between Romans and Samurai armies is so interesting..... it might as well end in a stalemate.

baka na gaijin! hahahaha :wink:

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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