constructing a vexillum & the legio II adiutrix pia fide

[petrinus]

so through my diligent research amidst being deployed in a combat zone, i discover i may have actual ancestral ties to the legio II adiutrix pia fidelis, hence im now a member here and have acquired a deeper passion for all things of antiquity, though more specificaly roman.
see my family, italian ancestry, is from napoli, and misenum is just across the bay. maybe, just maybe? anyhoooo, ive set myselft to the task of constructing a vexillum to honor the second, and i need as much help as i can get to make this thing as period as possible, im shooting for the dacian wars, moesia, time frame 80ad-100ad? ive found conflicting dates but that seems agreable. so where do i start and what do i need and does anyone know the better places to get it?
also the goat/ram was symbolic to the second so is sticking an animal skull atop this thing taboo? cause i think that would complete it! oh and lastly anyone no where i can find fellow legio II enthisiasts, obviously search, but anyone know anyone? gratis

[Matt Lukes]

Hi Petrininus, welcome to the RAT forum. First off, please put your real name in your profile signature- it's a forum rule.

As for your Vexillum, there are a number of sculptural depictions of them, however none have a skull atop the pole, so I'd say it's fairly unlikely such a thing to have ever been done. The Romans seem to have rather preferred bronze castings of figures to actual pieces- that's a tad barbarian I would think, and probably not thought too highly of.

Now as luck would have it, I actually have a couple images of sculputres showing a Vexillum of LEGII- see below. It simply has the stylized speartip on top. Now these are of LEGII AVG, not LEGII APF, and I don't know when the name was specifically one or the other, so they may not apply directly to what you want. The black and white image is from Trajan's Column, which is a depiction of his Dacian campaign, so the Vexillum pictured could be considered to be representative of the basic style of the time.

I hope this helps.

Matt

[petrinus]

done,.....and thank you. however your third image didnt load, my luck eh? anyway is there somewhere you knowi can acquire a bronze rams head? i may have to go neo classical/"barbarian"and stick this skull up there in the meantime anyway, not that i can even build on this thing til i get state side but im fortunate enough to have internet right now so im collecting the pieces, i need like real life dimensions and materials list, i understand there are a number of ways to construct this thing yes? like the tassles that hang along side the banner, sometimes have what looks like phalerae on them, as in a signum? sometimes no, any and all help appreciated thanks

[Matt Lukes]

As for the materials, linen or wool would probably be most appropriate for the flag itself, the only original known was actually painted (as opposed to the decoration being sewn on, embroidered, etc.), although I don't know what the actual type of paint used was.

The fringe along the bottom edge would be some sort of twisted cord probably similar to that used on the edges of pteruges, although again I don't know if any actual originals are known, so the exact nature (color, etc.) isn't known. Most people choose to make them gold or golden yellow in color. There are a number of common fringe edgings you can find in any fabric store, but I believe these are synthetic, so if you're going for max-authenticity, these won't be appropriate. Something made of natural fiber that is either golden yellow or can be dyed so would be most appropriate I should think. The extra perimeter edging shown on one of the sculptures I attached would be similar I'd think- a natural fiber weave, although it's quite difficult to tell. The majority of depictions of Vexilla I've seen though have no such edging, just the fringe at the bottom. Actually, that 'edging' could be separate from the flag, and might actually be the side straps with an additional section across the bar.

The two straps at the ends of the flag's crossbar are usually recreated as being leather with the studs and pendants that balteus apron straps have. I don't know of any actual evidence as to the material though, and although the one on Trajan's Column I attached could show studs, I don't know if this can be demonstrated with any certainty either. There are defintely pendants however.

The one artifact spear haft I'm aware of has a diameter of about 1", and that's the diameter of a couple of the artifact pila hafts as well, so could be considered at least an average diameter for roman hafts in general. I'd think that you wouldn't want to go more than maybe 1 1/4" for that of your Vexillum. The crossbar that holds the flag can be smaller though- I don't see why 3/4" wouldn't be appropriate.

The speartip seems a variable piece- sometimes depicted as being stylistically, sometimes a normal spearpoint, sometimes a wide triangular piece. I personally like the idea of a real spearpoint- the connection with a real weapon as opposed to a weapon-like piece seems rather more martial and appropriate for the Roman legions, however I wouldn't doubt for a minute that there were many styles including those only weapon-like ones.

[petrinus]

hey thanks again, and follows more questions,....
by what process / piece was the cross bar joined to the main haft and how tall should it be, the haft and how long the cross bar? also what about that inverse cup with the fringe dangle above the grip, it has a name its late and my brain is eating itself-i missed chow, and now im missing sleep trying to get this vexillum figured out, seriously thanks for your help.

[Matt Lukes]

Thanks Jason.

A ram's head wouldn't be appropriate for a Vexillum really, skull or bronze- there was a separate type of standard that would show the unit's 'totem' animal- the Vexillum was just a flag. The other standard seems to have commonly shown the actual animal too- not just a head. I've seen bulls- a common animal associated with many legions- and one that was a Capricornus, which is the one associated with LEGII, not just a ram. Hopefully that last image will load for you sometime because the figure to the left of the Vexillum is a capricornus- front half of a ram, back half of a fish- not just a ram. I also found one image of a reconstructed LEGII Vexillum that has a Pegasus painted on it for some reason- maybe they changed animals at some point?

At the moment I don't have the actual dimensions of the artifact Vexillum flag (it's postulated to be this at least), but from the sculptures showing the Vexillator and Signifers, you can see it isn't particularly large. Most seem to be recreated in the neighborhood of maybe 16"-18" square or maybe a little shorter. The haft in many sculptures appears to be maybe 2' taller than the bearer, so maybe 7'-8' would be appropriate.

[Matt Lukes]

No worries- happy to help I didn't actually know there was a formal term for the object sometimes depicted partway down the haft- I've seen it called 'hand-old' or described as something the bearer would push down on with his foot to plant the standard in the ground. It's seen on many different types of standard, so one would think it serves a function common to all- which something to assist in its bearing or 'planting' indeed would. The downward curve of the projection to me suggests more bearing than planting as the curve would more likely be a hindrance to pushing down with the foot- too easy to slip off! It looks to me like it might curve over the back of the bearer's hand when gripped just below the piece- although that wouldn't necessarily spread the weight out much to make carrying it for long periods more easily.

Since no actual Vexillum haft has ever been found, the attachment method for connecting the crossbar to the main haft isn't known. Some recreations have a cord that connects the two ends that hangs the flag from the haft as opposed to it actually being connected, although I've never seen evidence of this, so am not sure why it's done. Attached is a diagram of the method I found I like best. It's just two rings attached to one another with the openings perpendicular to one another. The larger vertical with the open portion vertical is for the haft, the smaller with its open portion horizontal is for the crossbar. The flag has an opening at the back to accomodate the connection of crossbar to haft. To put the flag on, the crossbar, it's simply place the flag with the ring in the opening and insert the bar. It's best, of course, that the fit is snug to keep the bar from sliding back and forth, or to secure it with a small pin or nail through the ring at some point where it won't be visible.

[Matt Lukes]

Whoops- I misread what you wrote and I didn't miss eating, so have no excuse :lol: If you're referring to the hemispherical object with the scaled surface and fringe at the bottom that one sees often on Signa, that's not something that I've ever seen on a Vexillum. The part I just described is the only part in addition to the flag/ straps I've ever seen depicted.

[petrinus]

hmmmmmmmmmm

the pegasus seems to be a tandom animal with the capricorn in regards to the legions iconography i cant locate a discernable historical difference and they are shown together often, and yes it did load, thanks again. i'll save the skull for my mars / ares altar at home then, its a nice piece! you mean the aquilla and the signum, yeah i was trying to make just one but i guess all three must be, for the glory of rome! lol, hey man do you know about joining the cross section or no? i dont want to do it wrong.

[petrinus]

oh and if i use horn and bolt end caps on the cross member, no go, or can i maybe do that, thought it might look sweet?

joining the spear tip, split the wood or buy some kind of coupling?
and how much is too much to pay for a spear tip, period as in antique, i see em on ebay for 50-100.oo some in acceptable shape, fakes or what?

[Matt Lukes]

I just added info about joining the crossbar to the haft in my second last post and will add the diagram in a second. There's no real way to do it wrong as such since we don't know how it was really done, but as I wrote, the cord suspension doesn't have any evidentiary backup that I know of, so that'd be less defensible than any other I'd think.

Roman speartips had sockets, so all you'd need to do is taper the end of the haft such that it fits. The ones you see on ebaY are all very small- on the order of 15-20cm in overall length- a tad tiny I'd think for a Vexillum. I'd tend to doubt the ones you see on ebaY are fake, they don't seem to be particularly rare objects. Large ones on the order of 12" long aren't common so those I might be a tad more wary of. The problem is identification and dating- they might be Roman, they might not be.

[Matt Lukes]

Here's the attachment 'system' I use- just two rings perpendicular to one another:

[petrinus]

your 3rd image shows the two together, well a horse and rider, (sometimes in mytholgy the pegasus has no wings just flys, maybe wings were an artsy way to say fast horse?!) and on another site, had i saved it to favorites....i saw it also, i'll check my history and hunt it up.
either way i prefer the capricorn i think

the coins you have are the the 193-197AD legIIapf commorative coin? for their support of severus in his push for the purple? i so want one of those coins.

im not seeing the attachment/diagram?

oh and hey is that downward sloping hand thingy metal? brass, iron? got any made? molds? contacts for one? reasonably priced?

[petrinus]

ok, now maybe im missing the bus on this one but what joins the two together, loops, rings what have ya, that gives it connectivity and strength? riveted? or? if im being a blister tell me, and i'll go google my night away, morning....daaaaaaaaaamn 0136?! lol, but you seem knowledgable and helpful, so if got me on this great

[petrinus]

http://www.livius.org/le-lh/legio/ii_adiutrix.html

Matt,
some info on the legio II apf, though they leave some things out like hadrian serving as tribune and nero actually started them up in 66 ad to repress a jewish rebellion. this site shows various iconography but not together, just validates the two seperately, but ive seen more of it out there. i'll keep looking.