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Europe\'s oldest book soon to be deciphered
#16
Quote:Does one culture's adoption of another culture's visual religious symbol inherently mean that the adopters also adopted the symbol's original religious meaning? What was the symbol's original religious meaning? Did its religious meaning change over time? How much of the religious meaning was adopted/changed? How can you irrevocably "prove" this? (e.g., the swastika [worldwide, Neolithic through present period])

The swastika probably retained it's meaning as a solar symbol of protection and bestower of good fortune, (in the form of fertility or prosperity)
It was used both left and right handed....possibly related to the solar disc travelling from East to West, then West to East during the hours of darkness and symbolic of 'increasing' or 'decreasing' depending on how you used it...
The Nazis, of course, used the swastika and the Sigil rune, also representing the sun as their 'Aryan' symbols, which was very damaging to the use of this symbol in the West..
seeSwastika
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
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#17
Quote:All these talking about the "strunggle-war between Good & Evl"... it's all Greek to me!

There NO such thing, for me. This is a theory of religions, created for "small minds" folks, like ancient Jewry tribes or the Muslems tribes...


Limited to religions? Partly a matter of semantics? We're all "small-minded" from some perspectives. :lol: Perhaps we agree to disagree on "Good vs. Evil". Smile

Quote:The Creator made us and GAVE us mind to use it; he's living us to made our choise; there is NO GOOD or EVIL efforts, that we living; it's OUR efforts, OUR responsibilities...

Good & evil, good & bad, helpful or harmful, positive or negative, pleasure or pain, selfish or selfless, etc. Partly a matter of perspective, partly a matter of semantics. A rose is a rose... Things exist regardless of our views & judgments. Our thoughts, our words, our actions. All our responsibilities. The consequences of our words & actions, partly our responsibilities too.

Quote:Anyway... Back to the "descoveries"... Always is nice to finding "new" things to study... Even from "lower" culture, than Greek.
(My opinion, NO OFFENCE to ANYONE; please forgive me, if I made mad someone...)

I wouldn't say "always" here. Life's short (for me), so I'm semi-selective about most things (not perfect though... :lol: )

Perhaps "lower" culture in some ways, but "higher" culture in others. Depends on specifics, definitions, perspectives, etc.

From other sources (not previously in this thread):

Quote:"People are disturbed not by things, but by the view they take of them." -- Epictetus (ca. 55-135 AD)

(Maybe not so when one person physically acts upon another person, e.g.: to confine, starve, torture, etc.)

No offense taken here. Only words & ideas. Examined lives. So, we agree on some things, disagree on others, in various aspects & degrees.

Pax tecvm. Smile
AMDG
Wm. / *r
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#18
Dear "Restitvtvs", I'm strongly believe that we AGREE, some-how...

We putting different thoughts, but deeply we agree, don't you think?

Regards...
aka Romilos

"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!
"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
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#19
Quote:The idea that you need special knowledge, has nothing to do with orthodox Christianity, although it plays a role in Gnosticism.
Precisely. Thank you, Jona.
Robert Stroud
The New Scriptorium
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#20
Quote:Dear "Restitvtvs", I'm strongly believe that we AGREE, some-how...

We putting different thoughts, but deeply we agree, don't you think?

Regards...

Dear "Iupus": It's dIfficult for me to determine how much we agree & disagree with our brief discussions here. So, I qualifed my general statement about us agreeing & disagreeing "...in various aspects & degrees." We may use different words, but have similar intended basic meanings. Whatever the case, that's OK! Smile

Pax tecvm, +r
AMDG
Wm. / *r
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#21
Ooook, my dear religious Smile mate... Let's find out our "agree/disagree" balance, through talking issues...

(I said "religious", because of your avatar... No offence or anything, just trying to be friendly...)
aka Romilos

"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!
"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
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#22
Quote:This could be yet another huge blow on Christianity. :?

I'll bet the Pharisees thought that with every blow of the hammer on the nails! :lol:
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#23
Quote:1. I would love to know who the grave belonged to....!
2. Christianity is a religion that took much from earlier and contemporary faiths and claimed it as theirs, to draw followers.
Arthes

I think that they rather accepted practices and dates for festivals that didn't cause a problem with Christian Theology. You can choose to view this as deceitful hijacking of the beliefs of others, or as liberalism. Here's a thought for you: many people like to think Christianity "stole" crucifiction from Asatru - despite the fact that this form of punishment was standard in the relevant place and time - and in the face of the fact that Christianity pre-dates this story of Odin.
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#24
Quote:PEACE[/size] :evil: :evil:
Where are all those 'Witches and Heretics' who do not follow these 'biblical' paths..... they are the ones protesting about the future of the earth and their concerns for all life existing on it.....!
(incidentially Satanists are under the 'Christian' banner, as Satan is a Christian concept - but think about the horns and goat legs for the origins of the name - or Mr. Tumnus)
regards
Arthes

Hi, Cristina,

You're obviously very passionate about this - it shows in your inclination to argue by assertion and to draw conclusions for which you offer no evidence! I've heard all these "knockout" pagan claims before and none of them bears examination. The point you make about satanists is a transparent piece of sophistry (using deceitful argument to support a false claim). Early Christians practised the things for which you say the Church would have burned them. Indeed, there is a continuing tradition of miracles up to and including the present day. As our colleague says, the fact that some followers of a religion do evil does not necessarily invalidate the tenets of that religion. - Quite a handy argument for Vikings, as well as Christians, I'd say!
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#25
Dear "paulaallen", did I say something wrong?

Because, after I wrote a comment, I've seen HUGE "activity" in this topic...
Huge... "sheets" of texts...

Generally, everybody has the right and he/she is free to say his opinion in something, no?

So, IF someone believes that I said something and disturb him, by all means, I like to hear it...
(I've always using kind words in my texts, am I?...)

Regars.
aka Romilos

"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!
"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
Reply
#26
Quote: You're obviously very passionate about this - it shows in your inclination to argue by assertion and to draw conclusions for which you offer no evidence!
Khaire Paul,
I wouldn't call the Witch hunts of England and New England 'no evidence'. The Knights Templars and Cathars were killed as 'heretics' and 'witches' that is historic fact...(as was the Spanish Inquisition!)
'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' where did that actually come from?
The 1611 King James Bible had that in Exodus 22.18
The word traslated as 'witch' was actually 'chaspah' which was a word that meant 'poisoner' (or murderer). In other words those who intended to kill via poison...aka Iolus and Alexander....Iolus would have been a 'witch'.
This was actually pointed out in a book by Reginald Scot in c1580..!

In fact, if you read these, they are totally out of context with the rest of Exodus 22.... :?
From King James Bible-Exodus22
18: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
19: Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. (especially the Lamb of God or any of his flock...sorry about that ... :oops: )
20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Especially when you reach.....
28: Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
GODS in plural.....????

So you were basically being told to honour the GODS, but not sacrifice to them. To sacrifice to the Lord, was perfectly alright.....???
So a lot of poor people died as a result of a mistranslation of one word and for honouring their own personal Gods or Goddesses...that the Bible seems to indicate is not wrong.... :?

Incidentially, I have been a vegetarian for many years.....
Exodus 22.31 states: And ye shall be holy men unto me: neither shall ye eat any flesh that is torn of beasts in the field; ye shall cast it to the dogs.
I suppose most people take that as meaning it is alright to eat those that have been killed in slaughterhouses..... :wink: :wink:

regards
Arthes
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
-
Reply
#27
Excuse me, my lady...

DID I say something and upset someone here?

You seams to me "more close" to my thoughts and you are English too, so you can help me to understand...

Regards my lady.
aka Romilos

"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!
"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
Reply
#28
Christianity vs the pagans. That had been a struggle lasting 2000 years. It’s not going to end now. Christian faith has merit and so do most of the “old” religions.

It’s when one mess religion with politics that the trouble starts. “One God, one King under God” anyone? And let us be frank, people don’t have a problem with Christianity, but with the Christian church and the dogmas that the priests or whatever they call themselves preach.

One a lighter note that I remember due to Arthes’s
Quote:'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' where did that actually come from?
The 1611 King James Bible had that in Exodus 22.18
The word traslated as 'witch' was actually 'chaspah' which was a word that meant 'poisoner'

So here’s a joke.

A young monk started working in the scriptorium of his monastery. All day long, monks, young and old, would copy manuscripts from the huge ancient library. A very tiring job but someone had to do the Lord’s work.

So one day the young monk went to chief librarian and said to him:
“Brother Librarian, I have a question for you.”
“Ask my son” said the elderly monk.
“Brother, all day long we copy the word of our saviour, but we are only men. And some of us old men with poor eye sight. What happens if one of us misread a word and copies it wrong”
“What an appalling thought my son. But that can never happen, The Lord our God would never allow it, and even then we have the older books for reference. Rest your mind my son”. Answered the Librarian with a troubled smile.

A couple of days later someone noted that the Chief Librarian was missing mass and prayer. The Abbot sent a novice to find him, but the boy couldn’t find him anywhere. The monks went afraid, and they started looking and searching in every corner of the monastery. But the old monk was nowhere to be found. At some point someone remembered the old catacombs under the library that they used to store really old books. In went the monks with lanterns searching. At one point one of them saw a light and there was Brother Librarian crying his head off.
“What happened Brother, why are you crying?” they asked again and again, at which the Librarian answered “The word my brothers, the word is Celebrate!!!”
Spyros Kaltikopoulos


Honor to those who in the life they lead
define and guard a Thermopylae.
Never betraying what is right,
consistent and just in all they do
but showing pity also, and compassion
Kavafis the Alexandrian
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#29
Quote:
Arthes:m377tb3w Wrote:1. I would love to know who the grave belonged to....!
2. Christianity is a religion that took much from earlier and contemporary faiths and claimed it as theirs, to draw followers.
Arthes

I think that they rather accepted practices and dates for festivals that didn't cause a problem with Christian Theology. You can choose to view this as deceitful hijacking of the beliefs of others, or as liberalism. Here's a thought for you: many people like to think Christianity "stole" crucifiction from Asatru - despite the fact that this form of punishment was standard in the relevant place and time - and in the face of the fact that Christianity pre-dates this story of Odin.

The faith of Asatru/Vanatru seems to have traced its path to Scandinavia and Germany from the region of the Steppes and possibly earlier in Mesopotamia.
Some of the Gods and Goddesses can be recognised under earlier names and elements of early language from the region such as Ossetian seems to indicate links as does Finn Ugric (I think that is the one, may be wrong) to the migrations North
Forms of crucifixion also exsisted in these areas prior to the crucificion of Christ.
Odin was not crucified, he underwent a test of faith and strength which can be interpretated as a physcial or spiritual one. He was hung from Yggdrasil for 9 days, pierced with his own spear Gungnir and gave his eye to learn the secrets of the Runes. (As you probably know)
The other interpretation of this is that Odin underwent a Shamanistic journey lasting 9 days. Yggdrasil being the World Tree that connects to the nine worlds of this faith (rather like the Cabbalah or Celtic Tree of Life)..
Or if you want to be really awkward, he travelled in a ship like Frey's Skidbladner, that needed no sails to fly through the air, and visited these places personally.... :wink: :wink:
Now how did the early Vikings know about the nine planets.....as you can't see Pluto (he is in the dark underworld)
and how do you know that the crucifixion of Christ was not compared to the earlier tale of Odin?
To change the subject slightly, a staunch RC Christian immortalised Odin in his stories, as an intelligent if rather eccentric immortal who fought on the side of good .... he was called Gandalf...!
Of the Vanir, Ingvi -Frey can be found as Ingwe the Lord of the Vanyar (note the similarity of the name to Vanir) who is High King of the Elves in Valinor and I strongly suspect that Galadriel was based on Freya.....! :lol: :lol:
Regards
Arthes
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
-
Reply
#30
Quote:Excuse me, my lady...

DID I say something and upset someone here?

You seams to me "more close" to my thoughts and you are English too, so you can help me to understand...

Regards my lady.

Khaire Lupus,
No, you haven't upset anybody, well not me at least.....as Spyros says....it's the usual 'discussions' of who is right or wrong when it comes to belief... :wink:
I think it may have been my comment about 'Christians taking from other faiths' that sparked this off....then your post elaborated on it !
regards
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
-
Reply


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