Europe\'s oldest book soon to be deciphered

[mayan king]

I know greeks are loveing this right now 8)

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_ ... 110004.htm

[Zenodoros]

This could be yet another huge blow on Christianity. :?

[Jona Lendering]

This could be yet another huge blow on Christianity.

Don't worry. This is the relavant line:

"In a way, it was a precursor of Christianity," Pierris said. "Orphism believed that man's salvation depended on his knowledge of the truth."

But that's not Christian at all. Christians believe that salvation depends on Christ, disagreeing if it depends on Christ alone or Christ plus a little from the believer. The idea that you need special knowledge, has nothing to do with orthodox Christianity, although it plays a role in Gnosticism. I think that Mr. Pierris has been misquoted or mistranslated.

[Arthes]

1. I would love to know who the grave belonged to....!
2. Christianity is a religion that took much from earlier and contemporary faiths and claimed it as theirs, to draw followers.
If it was proven beyond doubt that Jesus was claiming to be the son of a known Pagan diety.....would Christians deny that is possible.....???
regards
Arthes

[Jona Lendering]

If it was proven beyond doubt that Jesus was claiming to be the son of a known Pagan diety.....would Christians deny that is possible.....???

It might create a serious problem, because in that case Jesus was not a Jew and a monotheist. But the proposed discovery would be an unlikely one, because Jewish sources (Flavius Josephus, a couple of Talmudic lines) and Pagan sources (Suetonius, Pliny, Tacitus, and perhaps Dio's reference to Flavius Clemens) all agree that Jesus was and remained a Jew.

[Restitvtvs]

If it was proven beyond doubt that Jesus was claiming to be the son of a known Pagan diety.....would Christians deny that is possible.....???

It might create a serious problem, because in that case Jesus was not a Jew and a monotheist. But the proposed discovery would be an unlikely one, because Jewish sources (Flavius Josephus, a couple of Talmudic lines) and Pagan sources (Suetonius, Pliny, Tacitus, and perhaps Dio's reference to Flavius Clemens) all agree that Jesus was and remained a Jew.

Can anything in this world be proven beyond doubt?

Given the same scepticism & stringent analyses applied to so many subjects over the centuries, will this new discovery withstand decades of scrutiny & debates as well as others (e.g., Gnostic gospels)?

[Jona Lendering]

Can anything in this world be proven beyond doubt?

No, but people can agree on the criteria to judge. For example, Galilei ultimately "won" his debate because both natural scientists and the church agreed on the type of evidence and proof.

If someone does not accept evidence, debate becomes indeed futile. Unfortunately, religion has a lot to do with the acceptance of a revalation, that is not shared by everyone, and is accepted without criticism by others.

[Restitvtvs]

Excellent reply.

Revelations. Difficult to replicate, model & test using "scientific method". Easy to misunderstand. Easy to fabricate.

Possible causes: supernatural "reality" (e.g., supreme being[s]); natural "reality" (e.g., unintentional biochemical or psychological illusion, intentional fraud/scam); etc.

Many possible interpretations of others' revelations.

[Restitvtvs]

Reading the linked article about this 4th c. BC Greek document, and its possible 5th c. BC Greek precursor source(s), raised more questions, particularly about the various assertions & conclusions.

Monotheistic beliefs/religions have been dated to before this 4th c. BC Greek document:
Atenism (origin ca. 14c. BC); Judaism (origin in/before 13th c. BC); Zoroastrianism (origin in/before 12thc. BC, expansion ca. 6th c. BC); Jainism (origin before 9th c. BC); et al.

This 4th c. BC Greek document was written after Greek's contact with two or more of these & other religions, through trade, travel, warfare, etc. Does that inherently make any of these other religions the precursor of 4th c. BC Greek Orphism?

Does exposure to beliefs/values inherently mean to be influence by it? If so, then how much? Significantly? Completely? How can you irrevocably "prove" such causation?

Does one culture's adoption of another culture's visual religious symbol inherently mean that the adopters also adopted the symbol's original religious meaning? What was the symbol's original religious meaning? Did its religious meaning change over time? How much of the religious meaning was adopted/changed? How can you irrevocably "prove" this? (e.g., the swastika [worldwide, Neolithic through present period])

Is similar, but independent spiritual revelation or creation of religious symbols possible? Is it possible in isolated or widely separated persons & cultures? (e.g., Human cultural equivalent of other species' biological "convergent evolution" [evolutionary biology])

Correlation does not "prove" causation. Predecessors are not necessarily precursors.

Of course, this linked article is brief. I rarely make conclusions about things. When I do, they are almost never absolute conclusions. Even my absolute conclusions are open to revision, given sufficient "solid" evidence.

I look forward to more "solid" evidence related to this 4th c. BC Greek document.

[Jona Lendering]

Of course, this linked article is brief. I rarely make conclusions about things.

In my opinion, one can best ignore publications like these. Archaeologists need to create some publicity to raise their funds. Cf. this thread.

[lupus]

Greetings to all...

First, there are SEVERAL books that been "appeared" these past months. "Judas' Gospel" & "Maria Magdalin's Gospel" are some of those...

This is another book, trying to "shake the waters"...

To me, I don't NEED new books to figure out what I'm whiling to believe.

I'm not thinking myself as a "classic" & "devoted" Orthodox Christian; I have MY (!) "dogma":

"HELLENISTIC CHRISTIAN".

I believe in many of Christianism's believes and I have ADD (!)... MANY Greek Philosophy's principles...
The "original" Christianic "orders"/principles wanted (and SUCCEED) to DESTROY ANY HELLENIC "element"!
For that ONLY, I hate the Christian Church!... Anyway, present Christianism HAS ALMOST NOTHING alike, with Jesus Christ's ORIGINAL preaching... The Apostles of Christ, changed/"modified" many of his words, to "fit" them in the so many different culture/nations that were preaching, these nations ALSO changed/"modified" them through time for their CHURCH's "needs" on the folk,...
... so we are getting teaching (to me), completelly unsubstantial with the originals...

About that new book, I've seen/read about a papyrus discription...

I don't really can be sure - if I'm not check my books, but HELLENES DIDN'T USE PAPYRUS... yet (in this year that they believing this papyrus is from)!

Hellenes used to write IN MARBLES and in waxed tablets or leather pieces (about the last one, remember the Spartan "counterespionage" method, of writting on a long-long leather stripe, rounded on a wooden pale and they've been send it unwrapping and ONLY a person with a SAME size/thickness pale could re-wrap it and read it...)

Also, take in mind, that GREEK language & writting was like... English in our days. A UNIVERSAL language! Even the noble Romans DIDN'T use latin to talking each other! They used Greeks! Only the low-class Romans talked latin...
(For example, in Mel Gibson's "Passion of Christ", Gibson was TOTALY wrong by having Pontius Pilatus talking to his wife in latin!!! And NOT having a GREEK discription on the Cross!)

Even the BARBARIC tribes that were start living together/near the Roman Empire or the Byzantine, they were educated in Greeks...

So...

This papyrus MAYBE not Greek...

Or, maybe is a late Greek discriprion (let say, Alexander The GREAT descendants' script; myabe a Ptolemy's script...)

Anyway... Thoughts of mine, shared with you...

Regards...

[Arthes]

Christianism HAS ALMOST NOTHING alike, with Jesus Christ's ORIGINAL preaching... The Apostles of Christ, changed/"modified" many of his words, to "fit" them in the so many different culture/nations that were preaching, these nations ALSO changed/"modified" them through time for their CHURCH's "needs" on the folk,...
... so we are getting teaching (to me), completelly unsubstantial with the originals...

...

That is true, Christianity (as I have said elsewhere) took from other faiths to draw converts to Christianity and then turned against those faiths they had taken from. Look at the destruction wrought by them against ancient sites and artifacts...and maybe even Alexander's remains... :evil:
The reason the church will not allow the remains in St Marks, Venice to be examined is that they are too scared. There is a possibility that the most famous 'Pagan' warrior king may have been worshipped as a saint all these years...... :lol: :lol: :lol: Saint Alexander.....!
What did the Christians do to those who practised what Jesus practised ( 'walked on water' - levitation, turned water to wine - alchemy, healed the sick - faith healing, Reiki, ...etc)
called them 'Witch' or 'Heretic' and destroyed them...... so if Jesus was reincarnated, he would have been destroyed along with the rest (like Jaques de Molay, the Knight Templar)
You only have to look at the wars between Islam and Christianity....both descendants of exactly the same Old Testament and some new Testament 'faith' - who both destroyed/destroy humanity in the name of their particular 'prophet'- Jesus or Mohammed both of whom preached [size=150:3qe9dg5q]PEACE[/size] :evil: :evil:
Where are all those 'Witches and Heretics' who do not follow these 'biblical' paths..... they are the ones protesting about the future of the earth and their concerns for all life existing on it.....!
(incidentially Satanists are under the 'Christian' banner, as Satan is a Christian concept - but think about the horns and goat legs for the origins of the name - or Mr. Tumnus)
regards
Arthes

[lupus]

I COUND'T AGREE more with these comments, my lady! :lol:

Regards.

[Restitvtvs]

"... the Christians..."? "...the Church..."? Each person has at least some complexity, diversity within. Much more complexity & diversity within any group of people. There are so many denominations of "Christians" (as they define themselves). Some denomination have more differences from biblical scripture than Islam & the Koran do. Each demonination usually has some diversity of beliefs, even if only considering each member's different degree of fervor on various tenets & life/work issues.

Unfortunately, the "road to hell" is sometimes paved with good intentions. Sometimes, not so good. However, violence & unjustices by various religious "believers" does not necessarily invalidate their religion's tenets. In any sizeable group of people, some are considered to be "good", some to be "bad", and many to be somewhere in between. Is anyone truly "good"? If so, then by whose definition? How accurately measured & judged?

Personally, I've thought that the struggle ("war") against evil should be within each person, to start with the "Man in the Mirror"; to show by spontaneous, personal life & work examples rather than by words; to personally & respectfully share this princples with our brothers & sisters, as they do with us. Of course, after days/years of discussion, consideration, we may change &/or still disagree to various degrees, but we can do so kindly, respectfully.

Back to the Source... How many people saw & heard first-hand, yet interpreted & understood somewhat differently. Were they "right" or "wrong"? More so those who were farther away, saw & heard second-hand, third-hand, fourth-hand, and so on. Some people degraded the "messages", wittingly &/or unwittingly. Others may have partly restored some "messages", "independently" &/or through revelation. Which paths are "better", "right", etc. Myriads of intertwined paths, with many multiple forks; so much "fog"; etc. Can we, in this life, truly reach the Source?

Back to the new "discoveries"...

...there are SEVERAL books that been "appeared" these past months. "Judas' Gospel" & "Maria Magdalin's Gospel" are some of those...

This is another book, trying to "shake the waters"...

To me, I don't NEED new books to figure out what I'm whiling to believe.

The literary world is flooded with such books; the media/internet world *much* more so with such articles & posts. Huge amounts of time & money spent overall. I at least selectively skim the articles & posts, in case there may be some good (or better) "nuggets", and it has yielded some worthwhile successes. Pax vobiscvm, +r

[lupus]

All these talking about the "strunggle-war between Good & Evl"... it's all Greek to me!

There NO such thing, for me. This is a theory of religions, created for "small minds" folks, like ancient Jewry tribes or the Muslems tribes...

Buddhism for instance, is based on NATURE and self purification...

Ancient Greek religion is also based in such things. They didn't "fear" any evil, but THEIR "DARK SIDE"...

The Creator made us and GAVE us mind to use it; He's leaving us to made our choise; there is NO GOOD or EVIL efforts, that we living; it's OUR efforts, OUR responsibilities...

Anyway... Back to the "descoveries"... Always is nice to finding "new" things to study... Even from "lower" culture, than Greek.
(My opinion, NO OFFENCE to ANYONE; please forgive me, if I made mad someone...)

Regards...