Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Any chitchat maybe, about that... "historic" movie
#1
Greetings to all...

You're aware - I assume - about that... "historic" movie, about the MOST GLORIOUS & EPIC sacrifice, Thermopylae's Battle 480 BC...

Have you checked the official site?

"300" - the movie

The comic-book was an "artistic"/"pop-art" version, quite interesting for an artist like me...
BUT A MOVIE???
A... "Xena" kind of movie, about that MAGNIFICAL historic event?

Is there NO respect at all? Even in a SO famous event, all over the world? Even if its' based, on the most famous Hellenic faction of Classic Age, the Spartans?

What can I say, dear fellows? I'm SO DEEPLY disappointed!

Any comment?... Regards...
aka Romilos

"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!
"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
Reply
#2
Khaire Lupus,
there have been a couple of threads about '300'.
The general opinion of the ladies looking at the portrayal of the Spartans is 'rather nice' :twisted: and Gerald Butler does come over rather well as Leonidas ... but overall, it is rather like a stage production.
Some of the fight action looks good and the overall idea is to portray the overwhelming odds that the brave Spartiate (and Thespaens) were fighting against .. but I really would have preferred the 300 in more authentic panoply to those little leather gladiator thingys and a rather more realistic film...!
I think most are waiting for Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire to finally begin production..although The Last Amazon looks more likely.
After all the training those guys in 300 did, I would consider casting them in a real portrayal of Spartans or/and Thermopylae!
regards
Arthes
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
-
Reply
#3
Khaire my lady...

Indeed... I'm finding this movie, a "Xena" replica sort-off!
I'm REALLY CAN'T UNDERSTAND, how a great novel like "Gates of Fire", a novel as much as accurated the writer could write it (my opinion), how THIS book "stuck" in pre-production stage, while THAT comic script SUCCEED to "pass" and become a movie!!!

Of course, my lady, the battle-sceens will be VERY IMPRESSIVE. How CAN'T be? Even the... "story-to-kidd-go-to-sleep"... "TROY" movie (SOOO pathetic resault, from a beloved director!), had VERY impressive battle-sceens!
Even the "poor" (how he did it?) "Alexander" of O. Stone, had VERY impressive battle-sceens - I'm talking ESPECIALLY for the FIRST battle in the movie, Gaugamilla's battle! (Outstanding "bird-eye" camera-traveling, showing the "loxe" - side - formations of the Macedonian Center or the FANTASTIC representation of the "Hamippoi" unit - running along with Alexander's cavalry)...

But... NAKED Hoplites with... thongs??? Jesus! In the name of our Lord, have these people FIGURE OUT, how a Phalanx with NAKED men would... survived from a SINGLE arrows shot???

What can we say?...

Regards my lady...
aka Romilos

"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!
"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
Reply
#4
Khaire Lupus
Quote:I'm REALLY CAN'T UNDERSTAND, how a great novel like "Gates of Fire", a novel as much as accurated the writer could write it (my opinion), how THIS book "stuck" in pre-production stage, while THAT comic script SUCCEED to "pass" and become a movie!!!
I think they call it 'Hollywood'... :? Oliver Stone tried hard to make a authentic if not totally accurate movie and look what happened....!
I personally don't think George Clooney would make a good Leonidas in Gates of Fire....he doesn't have the right 'presence', I never liked him much in ER.

Quote:Even the "poor" (how he did it?) "Alexander" of O. Stone, had VERY impressive battle-sceens - I'm talking ESPECIALLY for the FIRST battle in the movie, Gaugamilla's battle! (Outstanding "bird-eye" camera-traveling, showing the "loxe" - side - formations of the Macedonian Center or the FANTASTIC representation of the "Hamippoi" unit - running along with Alexander's cavalry)...
I love the film and the Gaugamela battle scene is just incredible.....I never tire of watching it and noticing different things.. Tongue
I thought both battles were extremely well filmed, even if realistically gory - (I felt rather sick on first viewing at the cinema...) Some are hoping for an extended version of the film, with most of the extra two hours that were cut out.
I think it was more to do with the film industry and Warner Brothers than Oliver Stone...that it went rather sour for him.
[/quote]
regards
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
-
Reply
#5
Greetings my lady...

(BTW - I JUST enter the forum since my last visit! I couldn't have any access! Serious problems in the forum's structure solved?)

Yes, indeed. When Hollywood "taking care" a film, look what happens!
What should Italians cry-out, about that... "historic" film, "Gladiator"? (Of course, I have great fan of it! I like it as a "sword-fighting film", but as a historic one? No... The opening battle-sceen, was one of the most impressive I've ever seen, though.)

Yes, I couldn't agree more, about your objection of Clooney as King Leonidas. He doesn't "fit" well in the role, I think. A... younger Son Connery would; even with the... "Highland" accent! Smile ... As I've read in many books about King Leonidas, he was probably 50-60 years old in Thermopylae's Battle! So... a "tiny" younger Son, could "pass"...

About the "Alexander" extension DVD version, I'm sorry my lady... This doesn't exist or will be! I've order a "Special Extented Edition" of a triple DVD from foreign country (was it US or UK, I can't recall well), I've got it, I've play it... and MORE "love chitchat" between Alexander & Hephestion!
Not SERIOUS extra battle-sceens, unfortunatelly...

I think, even the "ancient" and quite "poor production"... "The 300 Spartans" (1962, directed by Rudolph Mate) was better than many new epic films. Not mention "Spartacus"...

Regards my lady.
aka Romilos

"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!
"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
Reply
#6
Greetings. I tend to post on the IMDB message board about this film. I have a few things to say to a more open audience like you guys.

Firstly, I think Frank Miller is a TERRIFIC artist. His style is so much more interesting than most comic book artists, very loose and gorgeously inked - almost reminiscent of early Greek art itself. It is sometimes very lazy, othertimes it's beautifully detailed. The whole comic book looks absolutely delicious (and I can't think of any other word, honestly...) with fantastic watercolour work by Miller's wife. Speaking from an artists' point of view, '300' is comic-noir. I'm more of a cartoon fan, but this comic, at the very least, looks very nice.

I want to split this post up into different sections, so the points I make are more direct.

Depiction in Comic:
One can wonder exactly why Miller portrayed the hoplites as he does. Most people seem to believe it's in homage of ancient Hellenic vase paintings, sculptures and reliefs, which frequently "glorified" their warriors by showing that they needn't need any armour to be a great fighter. But this style of art seems to have never taken off in Sparta, who apparently clothed all their depictions whenever necessary. And if Miller wants to glorify the Spartans by giving them no cuirass... then why do they still wear greaves, sandals and additional bronze on their arms? Miller's decision perplexes me and I would like this comic MUCH more if the Spartans wore their correct armour (and maybe got rid of the cloak and sandals in the process. Arm gear seems to have only been worn on parade in this period, also). More horrifying still is that Leonidas is the only character in the entire comic with a crest on their helmet... and get this, it's nothing pretty like a transverse, a double or a tall crest, it's just your ordinary front-to-back one. This makes the other Spartans look even more naked!
Miller may have chosen this story because it's more original than just your typical superhero one (he made a few Batman comics back in the day). However, the superheroes are still there - the Spartans, heavily cloaked and seemingly immortal (even when not in phalanx formation!) are just as cliched as any other superhero, if a little less pompous.

Depiction in movie:
I find it absolutely amazing how (in my opinion) the most beautiful looking helmet of all time, the Corinthian, can be mutated into the downright hideous representation it's getting in the movie. Miller drew his Corinthians rather accurately, so why have they been bloated into this tosh? They don't even look threatening or intimidating, as was the helmet's intention. They just look downright stupid.
To kick Greek historians while they're down, the sword being used by the Spartans in this movie will be a very stylized looking kopis, although the blade is much too straight and appears to be more of a Medieval two-handed-sword then anything else. The scabbard, usually worn over one shoulder, is worn across the waist by the actors in this film.
The costumes look very true to the comic (which is not a good thing!) and generally just don't seem to translate well onto the big screen with real-time actors, while they are somewhat acceptable in the very modern comic, they look ridiculous in real life.
The aspii of the Spartans also have the Lamtha on them, while they should have seperate mora designs in this period. This is a common misconception and can be excused whence compared to all the other inauthenticities.

Other inaccuracies:
There is no sight of historical Spartans like Aristodemus, Dienekes and Eurytus- instead we have some fictional ones called Daxos, Delios and Stelios. Ephilates, truly from Malis, is represented as a grotesquely handicapped Spartan, with bulging blisters all over his face and back. Both of these are used to make the story more interesting, although hideous and disfigured characters were cliche in 90's adult comics, and I think the trend has continued.
Miller shows numerous different phalanx-type formations in the comic, although not once are they totally accurate. He even adopts a testudo-type formation near the end of the comic. As a final noteworthy quote, one of the crew working with '300' said something along the lines of "we know nothing of how they fought", in regards to the Spartan hoplites. Frankly, I've never heard so much garbage in my life. This sort of thing is inexcusable- we know more about hoplites than ANY other warrior of their time.

Simply though, I don't think we need to put the blame on Hollywood (maybe only as to why they choose 300 over Gates of Fire... although Sin City was a smash, so I suppose it was inevitable), instead we should blame Miller for screwing everything up in the first place!

I'll still see it though, just for kicks.
[Image: parsiaqj0.png]
[size=92:7tw9zbc0]- Bonnie Lawson: proudly Manx.[/size]
Reply
#7
Quote:Firstly, I think Frank Miller is a TERRIFIC artist. His style is so much more interesting than most comic book artists, very loose and gorgeously inked - almost reminiscent of early Greek art itself. It is sometimes very lazy, othertimes it's beautifully detailed. The whole comic book looks absolutely delicious (and I can't think of any other word, honestly...) with fantastic watercolour work by Miller's wife. Speaking from an artists' point of view, '300' is comic-noir. I'm more of a cartoon fan, but this comic, at the very least, looks very nice

As an artist myself (comic artist aswell, too), I COULDN'T AGREE more!
He is superb artist, ALTHOUGH if you are working on a HISTORIC event, from my part, I think the artist must NOT add so MANY "personal" elements.

I'm pointing to another great comic artist, a US artist, that BLOW my mind with his SUPERB RESEARCH and art:

Eric Shanower, "Age of Bronze" (the epic story about Homer's "ILIAD")

If you take a look in his alboum-books, you'll be SHOCKED from his HISTORIC accurancy for these Ancient Times, of Bronze's Age...

Quote:One can wonder exactly why Miller portrayed the hoplites as he does. Most people seem to believe it's in homage of ancient Hellenic vase paintings, sculptures and reliefs, which frequently "glorified" their warriors by showing that they needn't need any armour to be a great fighter. But this style of art seems to have never taken off in Sparta, who apparently clothed all their depictions whenever necessary. And if Miller wants to glorify the Spartans by giving them no cuirass... then why do they still wear greaves, sandals and additional bronze on their arms? Miller's decision perplexes me and I would like this comic MUCH more if the Spartans wore their correct armour (and maybe got rid of the cloak and sandals in the process. Arm gear seems to have only been worn on parade in this period, also). More horrifying still is that Leonidas is the only character in the entire comic with a crest on their helmet... and get this, it's nothing pretty like a transverse, a double or a tall crest, it's just your ordinary front-to-back one. This makes the other Spartans look even more naked!
Miller may have chosen this story because it's more original than just your typical superhero one (he made a few Batman comics back in the day). However, the superheroes are still there - the Spartans, heavily cloaked and seemingly immortal (even when not in phalanx formation!) are just as cliched as any other superhero, if a little less pompous.

This is a nice, although too "simple" explaination. Greeks used to showing NUDE warriors in statues/paintings, NOT because they DIDN'T need armor, but because they LOVED human body/anatomy and showing a nude warrior was MORE... epic!

Believe me... Spartans and ALL REST GREEKS, were not "Batman & Robin" or "X-Men"! They were NOT "Supermen"!
They NEEDED PRETTY MUCH any protection they could have!

Showing them naked, it's a bit of... "Xena" TV show approach... A "Hollywood" aproach...

(Even P. Jackson's... Lothlorien ELVES in "Lord of the Rings" - IMMORTAL RACE, in Tolkien's mythology! - they were COMPLETELY covered by armor!)...

Quote:I find it absolutely amazing how (in my opinion) the most beautiful looking helmet of all time, the Corinthian, can be mutated into the downright hideous representation it's getting in the movie. Miller drew his Corinthians rather accurately, so why have they been bloated into this tosh? They don't even look threatening or intimidating, as was the helmet's intention. They just look downright stupid.
To kick Greek historians while they're down, the sword being used by the Spartans in this movie will be a very stylized looking kopis, although the blade is much too straight and appears to be more of a Medieval two-handed-sword then anything else. The scabbard, usually worn over one shoulder, is worn across the waist by the actors in this film.
The costumes look very true to the comic (which is not a good thing!) and generally just don't seem to translate well onto the big screen with real-time actors, while they are somewhat acceptable in the very modern comic, they look ridiculous in real life.
The aspii of the Spartans also have the Lamtha on them, while they should have seperate mora designs in this period. This is a common misconception and can be excused whence compared to all the other inauthenticities

Like I said... This movie is a SUPERB conversion of this fine comic-book!
Indeed!
But IT'S NOT A HISTORIC MOVIE! It's a FANTASY movie - close more to "Lord of the Rings" type of movies...

I like an accurated historical movie. Even... "Asterix & Cleopatra" is more historic accurated...

Quote:There is no sight of historical Spartans like Aristodemus, Dienekes and Eurytus- instead we have some fictional ones called Daxos, Delios and Stelios. Ephilates, truly from Malis, is represented as a grotesquely handicapped Spartan, with bulging blisters all over his face and back. Both of these are used to make the story more interesting, although hideous and disfigured characters were cliche in 90's adult comics, and I think the trend has continued.
Miller shows numerous different phalanx-type formations in the comic, although not once are they totally accurate. He even adopts a testudo-type formation near the end of the comic. As a final noteworthy quote, one of the crew working with '300' said something along the lines of "we know nothing of how they fought", in regards to the Spartan hoplites. Frankly, I've never heard so much garbage in my life. This sort of thing is inexcusable- we know more about hoplites than ANY other warrior of their time.

About Dienekes, you're wrong! We don't have any evidents or details about him (was he an 'Enomotarch' - squad-leader?), but WE DO know that HE WAS the one that said "Great! We will fight under the Shade!"...

And making the hoplites fighting like ANYTHING ELSE, except... Hoplites' formation is stupid enough!

Quote:Simply though, I don't think we need to put the blame on Hollywood (maybe only as to why they choose 300 over Gates of Fire... although Sin City was a smash, so I suppose it was inevitable), instead we should blame Miller for screwing everything up in the first place!

I'm respecting your opinion, but I'm TOTALY DISSAGREE on this!
I'm SO MUCH of blaming Hollywood!
Damn! LETS STAY ON THEIR HISTORY, if they like to TWISTING Historic events!
Why they keep working on OTHER NATIONS' History???

Hollywood made "Alamo" the movie, well-directed and much accurated on the true facts!
WHY they DIDN'T TWISTED that event TOO?

(First of all, I like to write a thought... Does these producers SHOULD FIRST took a permission from the Greek Culture Ministry or something alike? Or to hire a Greek History Professor or something?)

Anyway...

I'm a TOTAL SPARTAN "follower" and I'm NOT gonna see that movie; I'm protesting against that childish version!
Modern kidds DON'T reading books - UNFORTUNATELLY! - and they "educating" themselves from other "resourses". Movies are one of these "resourses"...
So, any kidd that will see that movie, will get TOTALY INACCURATED informations about the Ancient Spartans...

(I didn't see "Troy", I'm not gonna see "300" aswell...)

Regards...
aka Romilos

"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!
"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
Reply
#8
Did you read Gates of Fire? As good as that novel was, it isn't exactly the most accurate portrayal of the battle either.

Dienekes was a Spartiate there, actually he is credited with saying a lot of other "humerous" laconic quotes llike the one he is usually credited to that were sadly lost to time. Herodotus' sources also say he fought more brilliantly than any other Hellene. But I don't mean to say he was a captain, although he certainly could have been.

About Hollywood, well, I love the old classic Hollywood so I might have a little bit of bias, but I agree that most North American movies today are awful. But they're not entirely inaccurate. The soliders in Ollie Stone's Alexander, for example, look just like real Macedonian hypaspistes, pezhetairoi and hetairoi. Alexander is even armed with a gorgeous looking kopis. If any other director was basing a movie off of Thermopylae, I think they would have made a bigger effort to make things more accurate.

You're lucky you didn't see Troy... I'm scarred for life after seeing Brad Pitt's awful Achilles!
[Image: parsiaqj0.png]
[size=92:7tw9zbc0]- Bonnie Lawson: proudly Manx.[/size]
Reply
#9
Quote:Did you read Gates of Fire? As good as that novel was, it isn't exactly the most accurate portrayal of the battle either.

My friend, it was AS BEST ACCURATED AS it could be...

We talking here about a battle between THE MOST misterious Hellenic faction (Spartans) and a mighty VICTORIOUS force (Persians) - who HATED the Greeks, for their arrogant profile - and...
... we have A MASSACRE, with no survivors - actually, there were TWO Spartan who made it!

So... NOBODY, about ANY GREEK battle in Ancient Times - EXCEPT Alexander The GREAT's Time, who was THE ONLY one who had writters/scripters/etc. among him - can be REALLY & COMPLETELY sure for ANY fact!

"Gates of Fire", is a brilliant idea of "re-presenting" this famous battle...

Dienekes ACTUALLY WAS the Spartan who said that "We'll fight under the shade!"... I know about that, since my grade school - I've read it in THAUSANDS of books...
Of course, Springfield "add" more famous Laconic verbs to him, to add MORE glamour to that character...

Quote:The soliders in Ollie Stone's Alexander, for example, look just like real Macedonian hypaspistes, pezhetairoi and hetairoi. Alexander is even armed with a gorgeous looking kopis.

But, I already said that, O. Stone "Alexander" had THE MOST OUTSTANDING/ACCURATED Ancient Times' outfits & battle-sceens of every film I've seen!
Naturally... O. Stone had a chance to WRITE HISTORY in the cinema, but he FAILED dramatical!!!
He wanted to... "draw" Alexander The GREAT's "human nature" more and he focus on that!
ZEUS!!!
A GENERAL... A CONQUEROR... AN EMPEROR... A TOTAL PROFESSIONAL SOLDIER!!!...

"And he liked to focus on His human nature..."!!!

ZEUS!!!

What a HUGE WASTE of money, time, men-power!!!

O. Stone had the chance to make the "LORD OF THE RINGS", in REAL ANCIENT FACTS!

He made... the Ancient... "Platoon", with TONES of fealings & human nature's elements... Bravo. Very kind approach,... bad STUPID!

Quote:If any other director was basing a movie off of Thermopylae, I think they would have made a bigger effort to make things more accurate.

Not really... Pit Jackson created a MYTH ("Lord of the Rings"), as MUCH as accurated he could... AND LET HIM to do!
The new "King Kong" of his, was a FANTASTIC re-make!
A Pit Jackson's "Thermopylae" would be fantastic...

Quote:You're lucky you didn't see Troy... I'm scarred for life after seeing Brad Pitt's awful Achilles!

Not quite! My wife is LUNATIC with that... pr**k! I've seen it in DVD...

"Fantastic" movie... From one OF MY MOST FAVORITE directors! The director of the BEST anti-war movie, "Das Boot"!!!
He made this DIAMOND, he mad that... crap!

...
aka Romilos

"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!
"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
Reply
#10
Gates of Fire was great, but I didn't really like how the Spartans talked like US Marines, or Polynikes' drill sergeant techniques, and I think they might have been some wrong description in their armour and a few misused Greek words, but other than that it was great, and would have been way better than 300.
[Image: parsiaqj0.png]
[size=92:7tw9zbc0]- Bonnie Lawson: proudly Manx.[/size]
Reply
#11
My friend... OF COURSE you found these details strange and not too good!

Springfield is an American, for pitty shake! Not an historic - as he also says is not - just a writter!

What you expected?

Or you REALLY believe that IF a Greek writter would wrote this book, he may used... "LEA MEN ITIN PROVALESTHE" (like the War-Tune says in my signature!)?

Come on... We WOULDN'T be so LUCKY, believe me...
aka Romilos

"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!
"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Spartan Hoplite Impression - was "Athenian Hoplite&quot rogue_artist 30 13,709 08-17-2008, 12:31 AM
Last Post: Giannis K. Hoplite

Forum Jump: