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Quote:Thank you kindly. Keep up the good work 
Dear Spyros, this is very small for you (to use it as avatar)...
Gimme few moments to send you a suitable one...
Cheers...
Edited:
Here you are:
![[Image: euboea2os.gif]](http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/8580/euboea2os.gif)
Enjoy!
aka Romilos
"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
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Quote:conon394
It's not only about the quantity of the materials but also about work hours, Boeotian helmets needs more time to be made.
But again look at your own picture can you honestly tell me that boeotian helmet fig 8 represents some vast effort, amount of metal or skill; any reason at all to be significanty more expensive than pilos fig 11.
Sure a more ornate or protective boeotian helmet would cost more than a basic pilos, but so would a more ornate or protective pilos – I suspect the pilos on the French site a posted was not some bargain basement purchase.
Paul Klos
\'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird\'
Hey, Johnny,
Where'd you get the shield?
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Quote:Dear Spyros, this is very small for you (to use it as avatar)...
Gimme few moments to send you a suitable one...
Cheers...
Enjoy!
Thank you Lupus! That's much better.
Spyros Kaltikopoulos
Honor to those who in the life they lead
define and guard a Thermopylae.
Never betraying what is right,
consistent and just in all they do
but showing pity also, and compassion
Kavafis the Alexandrian
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Quote:Thank you Lupus! That's much better.
Don't mention it... Enjoy it...
aka Romilos
"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
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Ok as for the Thebans and the Boeotian,
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/ ... hebans.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/ ... sdeath.jpg
From the st Secunda's Gospel "The Ancient Greeks" 
Boeotians in general and especially Thebans carried the ideal of the perfect manly physique to the extremes - Having Hercules as a patron God tends to do that to a person.
Also:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/ ... ntharo.gif
This is a black Boeotian Kantharos vase, note the snake of the Spartoi and their Pilos helmets.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/ ... dragon.jpg
Kadmos killing the Dragon, note the boots and his Pilos hat.
Quote:But again look at your own picture can you honestly tell me that boeotian helmet fig 8 represents some vast effort, amount of metal or skill; any reason at all to be significanty more expensive than pilos fig 11.
Actually yes. I'm not the best suited to answer that but Pilos is simply a large scull cap, while the boeotian helmet, again originating from a hat, needs far more time and different techniques to be formed, repouse maybe?
Tell you what, I'll send an email to Manning Imperial and see what the people there think.
Spyros Kaltikopoulos
Honor to those who in the life they lead
define and guard a Thermopylae.
Never betraying what is right,
consistent and just in all they do
but showing pity also, and compassion
Kavafis the Alexandrian
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Quote:Ok as for the Thebans and the Boeotians,
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/ ... hebans.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/ ... sdeath.jpg
From the st Secunda's Gospel "The Ancient Greeks"
Generally, I don't really like the "Osprey's" illustrations. I'm NOT talking AS ART that I don't like them ("Osprey's" illustrators are AWESOME!), but as ACCURATE images...
TOO MUCH... "heroic" & "epic" pictures... LOTS of nudity, which is STUPID when you talking about HOPLITES...
Of course, these images shows "ceremony", but SINCE the Boeotian guy is wearing... BOOTS, how he's nude?
(Is it REALISTIC, to be NAKED but STILL wearing your Nike shoes?)
As you said about "Periskopio" editions, I founding these illustrations LESS artistic than "Osprey's", but MUCH MORE realistic...
Cheers Spyros.
aka Romilos
"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
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Ok, back to the original question. What did the Thebans look like in Leuktra. Some of the best information seems to come from the black marble burial stylae of the Boeotians from the archaeological museum of Thebes.
Most of them represent common rank and file hoplites, in exomis chiton, boeotian boots, hoplon and Pylos helmet. So I would gather that this was more or less the attire of a Theban hoplite at that time.
What it is interesting though is the attire of Ieros Lochos and maybe that of the front rankers.
Xenophontas in his Hellenica attests that by the 4th century Greeks started re-equipping in heavier armour. Muscle thorax and greaves reappeared.
According to Plutarch in his Life of Pelopidas, Ieros Lochos was first crated to boost the hitting power of the first line, their role being much the same as that of the WWI stormtroopers, to break the stalemate of the phalanx battle. Later on they were organized into an autonomous elite unit.
Taken into account the above, I think that what we have is an armored heavy infantry unit, in muscle thorackes (than in vogue) or linothorackes, greaves and probably boeotians helmets.
Also, and I have nothing to support this, it just my humble opinion, the first rankers of the boeotians phalanx were probably armored in the same way.
I’ll try and post some photos of the Thebans’ burial stylae as soon as possible.
Spyros Kaltikopoulos
Honor to those who in the life they lead
define and guard a Thermopylae.
Never betraying what is right,
consistent and just in all they do
but showing pity also, and compassion
Kavafis the Alexandrian
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In the late of Peloponnesian War and AFTER... allmost EVERYBODY worn similar (AND CHEEP!) outfits...
So, it doesn't surprising my AT ALL, if the Thebans worn "Exomis", "Pylos", "Boeotian Aspis", a spear & a "Kopis"...
aka Romilos
"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!"
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Spyros,
I would like to see the burial stele...
Thanks,
Johnny
Johnny Shumate
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Dear "Rebel" friend (you're a South guy, aren't you?), I'll see if I can find it and post it...
P.S.: Nothing too strange, I just always was a fan of the "rebel-yelling" folks in grey...
aka Romilos
"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
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Hello Johny,
This is the only phote I have at this time in my computer from the museum of Thebes.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/ ... style1.jpg
More to follow at a later time. The stele was made somewhere around 424 it is very interesting though. Note his Pylos helmet with the wreath, his boots and his highly decorated shield. The hoplite is nude but probably he is potrayted thus "heroically" to augment the fact that he was an athlete winner, again just MHO
Spyros Kaltikopoulos
Honor to those who in the life they lead
define and guard a Thermopylae.
Never betraying what is right,
consistent and just in all they do
but showing pity also, and compassion
Kavafis the Alexandrian
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Yea... I know that, I've seen it.
Do you notise HOW MUCH "Lacedaimonian" looks like?
(Cheep arms, similar to everybody)...
Imagine a conflict between Greece & Turkey. They sould add... huge flag-badge on their uniforms, to be sure WHOM you shooting at!
(Both having EXACTLY the same equipment - US - so... imagine the same in the Ancient Times...)
Regards...
aka Romilos
"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
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Chairete filoi,
This is a picture of black funeral stele returned to Greece from the collection of Getty museum
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/ ... Museum.gif
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/ ... Museum.jpg
Full story here,
http://cbs2.com/local/local_story_191191042.html
This is a photo of another stele from the archeological museum of Thebes, dated somewhere around 424.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/ ... stele2.jpg
And last, a picture of a member of the Sacred Band from the latest "Periscopio" publication about the Theban Hegemony.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/ ... chitis.jpg
Hope you find it usefull. Also Craig from Manning Imperial was kind enough to commnet on the comparisson between the Boeotian helmet and the Pylos.
Quote:Hi Spyros
Well in my opinion firstly there is more bronze in a boeotian than a pylos so the materials cost would be higher. While the shaping of the pylos is rather simple they do have a cranial ridge and sometimes a rolled edge at the base. However the shaping of the boeotian is deeper again than the pylos, coming further down from the top to its base. When raising a helmet (which is how they were most commonly made in the classical period), the greater the total height of the helmet, the larger the amount of time required to produce the helmet and the greater degree of skill required by the metal worker.
The final thing that will cause a great difference in the final price is that the plyos is all nice and easy to get to convex shapes. Much easier to planish and then polish. While the boeotian has some rather deep concavities on the lower section. They would not be too difficult to polish out hammer marks on, but certainly more time consuming than on a smooth plain convex surface.
Hope this helps and doesn't create too many arguments.
Craig
As Craig wrote, I hope this helps.
Spyros Kaltikopoulos
Honor to those who in the life they lead
define and guard a Thermopylae.
Never betraying what is right,
consistent and just in all they do
but showing pity also, and compassion
Kavafis the Alexandrian
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I like that guy's artwork, but I thing is exaggerating much his paintings.
Notise the leather stripes over the tunic and the shoulders; there are too fake, compairing with the FINE metalic part of his paint. Also, there're looking ATTACHED together. Odd...
Also, I can't remember a SO (TOO MUCH!) "Muscular-type", Greek version...
This one, looks like a Pretorian "Centurio" cuirass to me...
Another thing... The shoes... Boeotians worn BOOTS, up almost to the knee - about 5 fingers behind it...
That shoes looking TOO ROMAN to me...
Also, the plume-type looking odd to me aswell; I've seen "Boeotian" helmet with plume, but NOT with that kind; this is a CLASSIC "Corinthian/Chalkidian/Attic" type of plume...
Generally, as artist, this NIGDIOPOULOS guy is great; about some details and the outfit research, though, I have some objection...
aka Romilos
"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
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