Equites Clibanarii having shields?

[Razor]

I was wondering...

In the Notitia Dignitatum units are visualised by their shieldpattern.
Also some units that don't seem to be needing a shield in fact do have a shieldpattern.

Archer units for example don't really need one as they aren't expected to fight in a melee. Still they have one which might suggest they carried a small shield for backup just in case (on their backs?).

But what about the catafractarii, the clibanarii units and equites sagittarii units?

The catafractarii and clibanarii are expected to fight with a contus, which allows no room for a shield. (a backup?)
The equites sagittarii also wouldn't be needing a shield as they have no real space left while handling a composite bow. Again the shield could have been worn as backup on their backs or it could be attached on their upper arms as seems the case in the Byzantine army, but would it make sense in late Roman times?

In the heat of the action there would be little time to change weapons. I'd imagine there would be quite some difficulties to overcome only to grab the shield off of your back when you’re riding on a horse.

Now what seems to be more likely? Did these units in fact have a shield or didn’t they?
And if not why are their recognisable designs included into the ND? Perhaps just to distinguish units from others? (logically)
But still why would they have chosen these shield patterns if they didn’t actually had a shield on which the pattern was visible?
Also what’s the best way to carry a shield just for backup when both of your hands are occupied for foot units and cavalry? (the back, shoulders/upper arms?

Thanks

[Commilito]

Speaking on the topic of the Equites Sagitarii, I have seen them often depicted in early Byzantine times as having small shields (about the size of the Parma shield) strapped to the upper arm. I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to equip late Roman troops similarly.

Besides, militaries don't usually come up with new types of things on their own. The byzantines could have very likely gotten the idea from some earlier source.

Also, remember that catafractarii simply refers to "cataphracted" cavalry. And as the wars in the East went on and on, units of cavalry that could shock combat and fire missiles were favored over single use units. So im sure some of them had shields.

[Arthes]

Greetings,
I would think if a shield was carried at all, it would be slung across the back.
It looks as though shields are depicted with captured cataphract armour on Trajans Column..but maybe these were parade or infantry shields as the cataphract/clibanarii does not seem to use them.
Lighter cavalry may have carried a shield at times..
The unit design would have been on the standards for ease of recognition...?
regards
Arthes

[Tib. Gabinius]

Theres no doubt about cav. shields.
The formal name was "parma equestris" and they were possible made out of leather only.
Also in later times, the so called imperial time, the cav. take shields, now often much larger.

If you take a look to the huns or mongols you ll often find small shields, similar to the parma equestris out of republican times.

Its not hard to imagine that the riders of later rome would also use that kind of protection.
If you ever get the chance to watch the troop "timetrotter" ( www.timetrotter.de ) you ll see them doing a kind of gymnasia, fireing iacula on each other while ridding around. Even their small shields help them to protect themselve very effectivly.
So there is a use for those small shields, and perhaps they wer painted.

For the so called "Schockkavallerie" it also could be important to wear a normal parma of clipeus in case the first weapon broke and they have to use the sword.
And in that case it isnt hard to wear it on their own back till they need it.

But at all, its not important if the shields were used in battle. They also can just be used to devide the troops and to look great in case of a "VIP visit".

Take a look to our standarts today. The royal guard never wear a flag into a firefight, but they use it still on queens colour.
Ok, compared two different times, but you know what i mean i hope.

[Tarbicus]

Take a look to our standarts today. The royal guard never wear a flag into a firefight, but they use it still on queens colour.
Ok, compared two different times, but you know what i mean i hope.

I know what you mean, but standards and flags were still being used in battle into the 19th C. when firefights were happening and bullets were flying.

[Tib. Gabinius]

Yap, but that wasnt the fact about i tried to talk, instead it was ment that somewhat which belongs to equipment not must be in use or at least usefull at all.
I also mentioned republican cavallery and didnt want to discuss now republican army. :roll:

[Tarbicus]

I also mentioned republican cavallery and didnt want to discuss now republican army. :roll:

I was also talking about cavalry, so no need to roll your eyes.

[Tib. Gabinius]

There is a need if you really understood in the first time what i ment. cause if that is the case, you really changed the theme very hard.
Another example: i mentioned the adamklissi metopes and you tell us, how many people today live there.
Theres a link to adamklissi, but not to the theme.
And thats the cause why i rolled the eyes.

[FAVENTIANVS]

Is this image yours Razor?
I like your avatar, btw...

[Razor]

Nope, not a picture of mine but I do know who created it. It's made by Atilla Reloaded. (Some of his works http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24564 )

Mine is looking like this at the moment with shield on the back:




And thanks about my avatar. It's a close up of a tribunus for RTW also rendered in 3ds max.


ok, to get back on topic, How about foot archers? Could they also have a shield on their backs even if they weren't expected to fight with them just to recognise units better?

[Tib. Gabinius]

In the proceed to fast moving battles Maurikios give us some tactics of the "new stiled" battled (for him it wasnt new anymore, cause hes byzantinic time), and there the different kinds of troops fight really close to each other, sometimes distance fighters just behind some lines of heavy infantery.
That enabled them, to react quite faster than the heavy troop bodies of republican and early imperial time, but it also contained the risk to get into hand to hand battle.
I guess, thats the case why light infantery always also used a shield (like the velites in republican time) and sometimes also distance fighters did.
But theres no guarantee they really did, again like on cavallery, also this shields can just been an assecoir.

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

'tactica' (NOT arrian) from the 6th c. tells us that archers are expected to defend themselves in a melee, he even tells how. they use spears to defend against attacks, he prescribes that they are on the flanks unportected FYI.