Hard riding no saddles or stirrups

[Matthew]

Thanks.

[claudia crisis]

On another slant, I also recall seeing a photo of stirrups from Pompei, so perhaps not all saddles the same - some may be stirrup-less, some may not.

Hilary

Are you sure about that? I believe this would change the current thinking on when stirrups were introduced to the west, so double check on that.

I would wecome some input on this from "Horsey" people out there.
I admit to knowing nothing of horses, apart from one end bites & the other end is even worse.
Reference is:
Nappo, Salvatore, 1998 "Pompeii", Weidenfeld & Nicolson, London

Page 37 describing the Palaestra (public space for training etc) - photograph of artefact described as a bronze stirrup.
If this is correct we would have evidence, from a sealed, datable deposit, at least for some use of stirrups.

Discuss?

Hilary

[S SEVERUS]

Battle Tactics of Napoleon and His Enemies Edition New ed
Nosworthy, Brent

This book gives a very good description about cavalry charges and what is impossible to do with horses. A good deal of it will also imply in roman times.

[Peroni]

Nappo, Salvatore, 1998 "Pompeii", Weidenfeld & Nicolson, London

Page 37 describing the Palaestra (public space for training etc) - photograph of artefact described as a bronze stirrup.
If this is correct we would have evidence, from a sealed, datable deposit, at least for some use of stirrups.

Discuss?

Hilary

Hilary, any chance of scanning the picture and posting it here?

[claudia crisis]

Scanned the "stirrup".
Any ideas on what else it may be?
Discuss...

Hilary

[claudia crisis]

oops
put it on twice

Never mind - if it is a stirrup you'd need 2 of them

[Theodosius the Great]

i rode on a horse with a saddle and was very sore after a few hours how were the romans able to charge into battle?
how did they control the horse and not fall off?
would riding back then be extremeyl uncomfortable???

Roman horses were the size of modern ponies, weren't they ? So it probably isn't as dangerous or scary given that they're MUCH shorter I would think.

I'm going to begin riding lessons soon, so I'll find out for myself.

[floofthegoof]

Scanned the "stirrup".
Any ideas on what else it may be?
Discuss...

Hilary

Hmm... actually, I think it looks more like part of a 'bit' than a stirrup. Those loops look like their should be reins tied to them.

Edit: After some googling, I would say that this looks like a 'snaffle bit', although instead of biting on it, it would appear to go inside the lips of the horse. I'm out of my league though, a horse person should answer this.

[Peroni]

It is a part of an attachment for a bit, (incomplete - half of it is missing) but one which passes over the bridge of the horses nose and under its jaw. A 'hackamore'. (The widest part of the object is like a nose-band).

Flip the photograph up the other way and you will see what I mean.

I don't know how the author managed to deduce that the object was a stirrup. For a start it's way too large, and it also has no fittings for straps where they are needed. :?

My friend has a reconstruction of such a bit. Here it is..


Definately NOT a stirrup! Panic over!

[claudia crisis]

great.

I said needed horsey people to figure it out.
Dont know one end of a horse from the other myself.
Obviously neither does Mr Nappo!
Thanks

Hilary

[mcbishop]

It is a part of an attachment for a bit, (incomplete - half of it is missing) but one which passes over the bridge of the horses nose and under its chin. (The widest part of the object is like a nose-band).

It's a hackamore - Flavius Bassus' horse is wearing one as well as a curb bit. Horsiculturalists I have spoken to (my wife is one) differ in their interpretations of the use of the combination of such things.

Surely there's something about the saddle in Roman Military Equipment II, which was awaiting my return from holiday on monday?

You'd like to think so, wouldn't you Kate ;-) The principal discussion is on p.123.

For those interested in the cavalry charge, the best first-hand account is written by Ardant du Picq, a cavalry general himself who knew a thing or two about it and he was adamant that cavalry could never break a disciplined formation of infantry (and of course the square was the formation with the greatest integrity under such circumstances). He describes ancient battles from the point of view of somebody familiar with warfare. Luckily for you types, it is available as a Gutenberg text.

Mike Bishop

[Tarbicus]

He describes ancient battles from the point of view of somebody familiar with warfare. Luckily for you types, it is available as a Gutenberg text.

Interesting quotes from it, thanks Mike:

"A military man, a participant in our great wars, recommends as
infallible against infantry in line the charge from the flank, horse
following horse. He would have cavalry coming up on the enemy's left,
pass along his front and change direction so as to use its arms to the
right. This cavalryman is right. Such charges should give excellent
results, the only deadly results. The cavalryman can only strike to
his right, and in this way each one strikes. Against ancient infantry
such charges would have been as valuable as against modern infantry.
This officer saw with his own eyes excellent examples of this attack
in the wars of the Empire. "

"Roman discipline and character demand tenacity. The hardening of the
men to fatigue, and a good organization, giving mutual support,
produced that tenacity, against which the bravest could not stand. The
exhausting method of powerful strokes used by the Gauls could not last
long against the skillful, terrible and less fatiguing method of
fighting by the thrust."

[floofthegoof]

"A military man, a participant in our great wars, recommends as
infallible against infantry in line the charge from the flank, horse
following horse. "

Wow, does he mean like the big sailing ships in 'Line Ahead' formation? I would not have imagined that.

[Peroni]

Mike wrote...

It's a hackamore - Flavius Bassus' horse is wearing one as well as a curb bit.

Here is the fellow in question with the hackamore arrangement...

[Iosephus]

Wow! hock:

This Ardant du Picq study is fabolous, wonderful, beautiful, fantastic, top notch, amazing, marvellous, prodigious, compelling, enthralling....

Well, I know it was not a very constructive reply but rather an expression of uncontrolled joy.

I had been looking after this kind of stuff since years!

Thanks, laudes awarded!