foundation army

[JP Vieira]

Hello
on researching for the foundation army of Rome, i came across with the vilanova culture.
Is there any other culture (besides the etruscan) that mighthave influenced roman in the foundation period?
Best regards
JP Vieira

[Jona Lendering]

That depends a bit on how you define foundation, influence, and Rome. The Greeks have influenced the Villanova culture and the Etruscans; perhaps Greek influence (phalanx warfare) was direct, or perhaps through ports like Antium, or perhaps through Etruria. A tough question.

Do not rule out Carthage. There are indications that the consulship was influenced by the Carthaginian suffetes (more...) and R. Yaron, "Semitic elements in Early Rome", in Alan Watson (ed.), Daube noster. Essays in Legal History for David Daube (1974 Edinburgh), an article that has unfortunately been ignored.

[drsrob]

Hello
on researching for the foundation army of Rome, i came across with the vilanova culture.
Is there any other culture (besides the etruscan) that mighthave influenced roman in the foundation period?
Best regards
JP Vieira

Basically, the Villanovan culture is the immediate predecessor of the Etruscan culture. The latter developed out of the former through a process of simultaneus Hellenizing and Orientalizing. In Latium a similar but different culture existed; the Latial culture. This developed into the Latin culture through a similar proces, additionally influenced by the Etruscan cultural development.
Their is indeed also evidence for early Phoenician influence in Rome.

[JP Vieira]

Hi
Thanks for the reply.
I am researching as to produce an illustration of the roman warriors of the middle 8th century BC.
I am not sure as we can speak of Roman at this time, but this is the term I will use, for simplicity.
When Is there a first record of a Roman army?
Best regards
JP Vieira

[Jona Lendering]

I think the first reference to a real urban army of the city of Rome is the document included in Livy's first book, chapters 42-43.

[drsrob]

I think the first reference to a real urban army of the city of Rome is the document included in Livy's first book, chapters 42-43.

Not quite.

The earliest references in Livy are:

[...] Ex bello tam tristi laeta repente pax cariores Sabinas uiris ac parentibus et ante omnes Romulo ipsi fecit. itaque cum populum in curias triginta diuideret, nomina earum curiis imposuit. Id non traditur, cum haud dubie aliquanto numerus maior hoc mulierum fuerit, aetate an dignitatibus suis uirorumue an sorte lectae sint, quae nomina curiis darent.
Eodem tempore et centuriae tres equitum conscriptae sunt. Ramnenses ab Romulo, ab T. Tatio Titienses appellati: Lucerum nominis et originis causa incerta est. Inde non modo commune sed concors etiam regnum duobus regibus fuit.
[...]'The joyful peace, which put an abrupt close to such a deplorable war, made the Sabine women still dearer to their husbands and fathers, and most of all to Romulus himself. Consequently when he effected the distribution of the people into the thirty curiae, he affixed their names to the curiae. No doubt there were many more than thirty women, and tradition is silent as to whether those whose names were given to the curiae were selected on the ground of age, or on that of personal distinction-- either their own or their husbands'--or merely by lot.
The enrolment of the three centuries of knights took place at the same time; the Ramnenses were called after Romulus, the Titienses from T. Tatius. The origin of the Luceres and why they were so called is uncertain. Thenceforward the two kings [Romulus and Titus Tatius] exercised their joint sovereignty with perfect harmony. '

[...]Multitudini tamen gratior fuit quam patribus, longe ante alios acceptissimus militum animis; trecentosque armatos ad custodiam corporis quos Celeres appellavit non in bello solum sed etiam in pace habuit.
[...]'{Romulus} was, however, more acceptable to the populace than to the patricians, but most of all was he the idol of his soldiers. He kept a bodyguard of three hundred men round him in peace as well as in war. These he called the "Celeres." '

Each curia supplied 100 men to the army. This is a basically a centuria or "hundredship".
It seams reasonably certain that the "celeres" and the "equites" are the same men.

[Jona Lendering]

Yes, but are these reliable? I always have a feeling that they are too neat, too standard, too legendary. Servius Tullius' reforms sound more plausible and fit into the sixth century. So that's why I referred these, and not to Romulus.

[Commilito]

The Etruscans themselves were influenced by the peoples of Magna Graecia, the Greeks in southern Italy starting around 700bc.

Villanovan culture itself is descended from Hallstatt culture, a bronze age culture of Europe and the Alps.

It has also been shown that Illyrian peoples occasionaly migrated to Italy during the foundation period of Rome, so their culture may have come to Rome as well.

good luck.

[drsrob]

Yes, but are these reliable? I always have a feeling that they are too neat, too standard, too legendary. Servius Tullius' reforms sound more plausible and fit into the sixth century. So that's why I referred these, and not to Romulus.

On the contrary, the "reforms of Servius Tullius" are a far to complicated system for this early period.
The Roman Army of the Regal period and early republic was as far as we can tell a hoplite army (phalanx).

Quem "classicum" dicat M. Cato, quem "infra classem". 1 "Classici" dicebantur non omnes, qui in quinque classibus erant, sed primae tantum classis homines qui centum et viginti quinque milia aeris ampliusve censi erant. 2 "Infra classem" autem appellabantur secundae classis ceterarumque omnium classium, qui minore summa aeris, quod supra dixi, censebantur. 3 Hoc eo strictim notavi, quoniam in M. Catonis oratione, qua Voconiam legem suasit, quaeri solet, quid sit "classicus", quid "infra classem".

The so-called classici were not all the men in the five classes, but only those of the first class, who were assesed at 125.000 asses or more. The term infra classem, on the other hand, was applied to those of the second class and the rest of the classes, who were assesed at less than the amount stated.

This suggests that the Servian system originally contained only a single class, the later 1st. And this class just happens to be armed with hoplite equipment.

[...]Classi quoque ad Fidenas pugnatum cum Veientibus quidam in annales rettulere, rem aeque difficilem atque incredibilem, nec nunc lato satis ad hoc amne et tum aliquanto, ut a veteribus accepimus, artiore, nisi in traiectus forte fluminis prohibendo aliquarum nauium concursum in maius, ut fit, celebrantes naualis victoriae uanum titulum appetivere.
'[...]Some of the annalists have recorded a naval engagement with the Veientines at Fidenae, an incident as difficult as it is incredible. Even to-day the river is not broad enough for this, and we learn from ancient writers that it was narrower then. Possibly, in their desire for a vain-glorious inscription, as often happens, they magnified a gathering of ships to prevent the passage of the river into a naval victory.'

Of course this classis cannot have been a fleet as Livy rightly states. It was however the army consisting of only a single classis.

A single class of 40 (junior) centuries comes very close to the curiate system of 30 centuriae. The original purpose of the Servian reform was IMO probably to include a large group of men that could not easily be absorbed by the curiate system. The extra classes must have been added much later.

[Jona Lendering]

Of course, dear Rob, you're right that the document quoted by Livy is from the early or mid-Republic (as is also indicated by the amounts of money mentioned). But even then, the army of Servius Tulius -an army of one or many classes- can be seen as historical; whereas Romulus' army is legendary.

[drsrob]

Of course, dear Rob, you're right that the document quoted by Livy is from the early or mid-Republic (as is also indicated by the amounts of money mentioned). But even then, the army of Servius Tulius -an army of one or many classes- can be seen as historical; whereas Romulus' army is legendary.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that the foundation army is organized according to the Servian system. All sources agree that this system was created by Servius Tullius, the last king but one. This must have taken place in the late sixth century BC, so something else existed before.
The curiae certainly existed earlier and a centuriate system based on the curiae seems almost to speak for itself. (Of course that might have been the case for Roman writers too :wink: )