Another New Scissor relief

[Aurelianus]

Hi Martin

No 1. Chain mail with padded protective layer beneath: Have you seen the tests a Spanish gentlemen did with a 50 lbs bow and arrows with armor piercing tips at 5-10m distance against a piece of chain mail backed by quilted cloth, cited here on RAT a few times? No penetration. If we admit a Secutor to have worn chain mail (or scale for that matter), I cannot image him not to wear some thick, quilted material beneath it (otherwise chain mail would be no protection indeed) and then the odds should have been more even again.

Please give me the link to the post of the chainmail-test!

I'm very surprised that this should be possible! I'm interested how thick the padding is.

I think the padding should be too thick so that the Scissor wouldn't be movable enough anymore!!! He couldn't bend anymore as well!
So he wouldn't be able to fight at all!!!

As for that I can attest for the opposite. I've seen quite a few such fights over the last 3-4 years and there were many sucessful parries of the trident with the sickle-hand, and quite a few those were locking the trident effectively too in the process and bringing the retiarius to a distinct disadvantage.

Don't forget: What you have seen are exhibition fights. This is more show than everything else. I know three groups which have a Scissor! Two of them are absolutely show groups (and by the way: in one case absolute not and in the other case not very authentic)!!!

I would be interested what the Junkelmann-Scissor would say!

I know one of Junkelmanns Secutors. He is of the same mind like me about the Scissor. Next time when I will see him I will ask after the conact to the Junkelmann Scissor.

[Aurelianus]

Hi Yoda

There is an illustration of a relief in Junkelmans book showing a Secutor against a retiarius.

I didn't said that the Scissor didn't fight against the Retiarius.

I'm just sure that one Scissor has no chance! There must have been two Scissor!!!

[Conal]

Hi Yoda

There is an illustration of a relief in Junkelmans book showing a Secutor against a retiarius.

I didn't said that the Scissor didn't fight against the Retiarius.

I'm just sure that one Scissor has no chance! There must have been two Scissor!!!

I agree. It seems strange that anyone would give up a shield for a half moon knife !!

[Medusa Gladiatrix]

Medusa

Did you change the word lorica segmentata to lorica squamata, or did I read wrong before?

How ever:
The lorica squamata protects hardly better than a lorica hamata!!!!
The only advantage is that a trident could slip away if it strike the lorica hamata in a low angle.

In no case I like to fight as a Scissor without any other helps against a retiarius hock:

Nope, I wrote squamata all the time (so much to the theory that it's unimportant in which order the letters appear as long as the first and the last are the same because you don't read every single letter :lol: ) Well, no problem though, that can happen and squamata and segmentata are really very similar words.

There is a scissor with a lorica squamata (scale armor) as Conal posted on page 1 of this thread a little bit further down. But when looking at the photos on top of page 1 there are indeed two gladiators with some kind of tunic or lorica fighting against each other, one clearly having this "scissor arm" while you can't see it with the other. Maybe he could fight different opponents (though not at the same time :wink: )

[Martin Moser]

Hi Patrick,

thanks for your reply.

Please give me the link to the post of the chainmail-test!

Found it:
http://www.cotasdemalla.com/ma1.htm

I think the padding should be too thick so that the Scissor wouldn't be movable enough anymore!!! He couldn't bend anymore as well!
So he wouldn't be able to fight at all!!!

According to the test this doesn't seem to have been necessary, as the padding used was 5-8mm in thickness.

Don't forget: What you have seen are exhibition fights. This is more show than everything else. I know three groups which have a Scissor! Two of them are absolutely show groups (and by the way: in one case absolute not and in the other case not very authentic)!!!

I don't forget they are :-) ) I'm talking about Marcus' group, of which I'm a member for some 4 years now.

I know one of Junkelmanns Secutors. He is of the same mind like me about the Scissor. Next time when I will see him I will ask after the conact to the Junkelmann Scissor.

Is that Christoph (obviously it's not been me, but I haven't done a secutor for more than a year either ;-) ) )? I've never talked to him about that ....

Finally pulled out the the book and as Conal kindly pointed out above there is a relief showing quite clearly a retiarius and a scissor in a fight (Junkelmann, Marcus. Das Spiel mit dem Tod. p.110, Abb. 159)

[Susanna]

Just to add to the mail discussion, there was a test with Roman mails in the "Antike Welt" (German Magazin) some time ago.

Here is a discussion about it:
http://212.227.62.226/geschichtsforum/a ... 10496.html

(Altough I´m not expert enough to judge it, therefore I post the discussion here.)

[Aurelianus]

Salve Martin

Thank you for the link!!!

Please give me the link to the post of the chainmail-test!

This article is very interesting! It disagrees with the knowledge of a few tests made by Markus Junkelmann (puplished in "Die Legionen des Augustus" and some books about the roman Cavalry)
I know as well from some tests of the archery-builder of LEG XI(reenactment group in Switzerland). His arrows penetrated even Scuti which had more than 1cm of thickness. He will be very suprised about this article, because he would swear on his arrows

I think it is particularly a question about the metal what was used to make the lorica hamata!!

I don't understand why the romans smiths invented the lorica segmentata if the roman lorica hamatas had been strong enough to resist even against arrowheads?!?!?!?! The only edge of the lorica segmentata - apart from its lesser wight - has been its impenetrability against most of weapons! But this edge has been well-paid with the unsafed thigh and hip!

But I lose myselve in the discussion about the hamatas!

Conal said: "It seems strange that anyone would give up a shield for a half moon knife !!"

That is exactly the most important point. In comparison to the secutor the Scissor lose with the missing scutum much more than he wins with any lorica!!!!!

Is that Christoph (obviously it's not been me, but I haven't done a secutor for more than a year either )? I've never talked to him about that ....

No I speak from the secutor Theo Schaub ("crocodilus ")

salve

[Susanna]

The invention could also have been (you may stone me :wink: ) the faster and easier making of a segmentata and even the price. :roll:

But...last post on that...wrong theme here. :!:

[Aurelianus]

Dear Susanna

I agree with you! This point I have overlooked :oops:

Code:

.... you may stone me ....  :wink:

Don't forget: I'm a reenactor relate to the roman and not any other world!
Or did they stone too?

If it is so, you can participate on our next "Römertage" as a stoned women :lol: Are there realy several mening about the same word

[Conal]

Conal said: "It seems strange that anyone would give up a shield for a half moon knife !!"

That is exactly the most important point. In comparison to the secutor the Scissor lose with the missing scutum much more than he wins with any lorica!!!!! salve

I will take a look at the Junkelmann book tonight as the Secutor has lost his crescent knife and holds the trident so think it merits a bit of a closer look.

[Martin Moser]

No I speak from the secutor Theo Schaub ("crocodilus ")

Ah, Theo - please give him my best regards and greetings when you see him next!

[Tib. Gabinius]

Salve Medusa

As far as I can remember, there is no evidence to the use of the lorica segmentata by glatiators!

That's not quite the undiscussable fact.
The crupellarius, shown in a little statuette and explained as unhitable fghter by Tacitus could been an user of a segmentata.
Discussed several times, e.g. here:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?p=52594

To the rest of the discussion: please start with the necessary:
Form, material, context, preservation before starting the contents to be looked for.
Take a look at the tunics/chainmails/whatever.
An example which problems will stay if just discuss what everyone guess to see: There are some folds, but are this folds or is this left by the natural attacks on the material? And is this relief close to natur or stylizing?

And please, like Junkelmann himself wrote, dont forget we know some facts not for sure, like the less well reported types of gladiatorial combat.
That leads us back to the problem before: Show the helmets no eyes cause the erosion got them away, were the relief unfinished, should it show something or were these guys andabati...?

Arch. is more than just take a look on

[Felix Canus]

It may be just a point of trivia, but has anyone noticed how the Scissor's weapon closely resembles the Army's standard issue turf cutter? Even the proportions appear to be nearly identical.

Someone mentioned the purpose of using squamata when hamata was available. In most cultures, they developed scale armors long before they developed mailles. It was a simple process to hammer a bit of metal flat and rivet it to a backing, but drawing wire required a slightly more advanced technology (about 200-400 years in most regions).

There is also the question of balance. I have noticed that maille has a bad habit of stretching when you bend and twist your body unless it is tightly fitted. Scale does not have that problem. For a foot soldier this is not too much of a concern, but it is far more important when fighting from horseback where you require a lot more flexibility. Perhaps this is why squamata was used by cavalry long after hamata was adopted for infantry. Hamata would shift a person's point of balance in unpredictable ways, while squamata would remain fairly stable.

[Conal]

There is also the question of balance. I have noticed that maille has a bad habit of stretching when you bend and twist your body unless it is tightly fitted. Scale does not have that problem. For a foot soldier this is not too much of a concern, but it is far more important when fighting from horseback where you require a lot more flexibility. Perhaps this is why squamata was used by cavalry long after hamata was adopted for infantry. Hamata would shift a person's point of balance in unpredictable ways, while squamata would remain fairly stable.

This would be a good subject in its own right as I have often seen it questioned that scale, on a horseman, is vulnerable to upward thruts of spears .

[Invictus_Thrax]

it is just something i was thinking about but when a scissor was fighting a retiarus isn't it possible that a musculata breastplate was added over his chainmail as i've seen in a miniature figure?
I'm wondering this because right now i'm fighting as thraex/murmillo and i'd like to train scissor aswell.
Since my experience in medieval reenactment I know that a thrust thrives op the rings of chainmail and only protects against slashes so i was thinking what if full plate was added over it since medieval knights done the same for protection against thrusts?

Just and idea though something like this...