Another New Scissor relief

[Conal]

*edited image link*

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

I don't seem to be able to see the pics from the earlier posts,but Conal's image looks like he's wearing scale maille to me.

[Medusa Gladiatrix]

Yeah, strange, the pics are gone. But if you follow the links www.philipharland.com.. . which Uwe Bahr had posted you will see the very same pics.

[M. Demetrius]

Some say a tunic, some say linked maille, but the last picture does look like it couldn't be anything other than scale of some sort. What was it made of? There's no way to tell from that relief.

As for the tunic, I'm no expert, but I have never seen any gladiators wearing tunicae in mosaics, sculptures, or other depictions. So I would agree that the Scissor wearing the shirt is probably wearing plain old linked maille. That round knife, if like a modern equivalent, which it most likely is, is a leather slicing knife. You can still buy them, sometimes called a "head knife", and they are like a very large, curved razor. Don't let an angry person get to your abdomen with one of those, or you'll be disemboweled pretty quickly.

And round maille would repel a trident for the most part. That would make a very formidable opponent for a retarius. But for whatever reason, the Scissor seems to be an early style that was discarded when the "rules" got settled down to primarily the main four or five types.

Am I on the right track?

[Medusa Gladiatrix]

Salve Marce Demetri,

As for the tunic, I'm no expert, but I have never seen any gladiators wearing tunicae in mosaics, sculptures, or other depictions.

There were gladiators wearing tunics, the equites which opened the gladiatorial fights on horse back and then dismounted to continue the fight on foot. There are mosaics showing them, one is here:

http://www.schulwettbewerb.de/scifest/e ... _antik.jpg

Don't know from where that mosaic is at the moment, but will tell when I found out (or somebody else is faster to find this out :wink: )

[M. Demetrius]

You're absolutely right, Medusa, I'd totally forgotten about the equites. :oops:

I guess I'm still thinking small in the terms of what our gladiator group can do. We don't have any horses, so we don't have any equites. I can not imagine falling off a horse in gladiator garb. The rim on that helmet might be a neck-stretcher, you know?

Forgive my mis-statement.

But on the scissor, I can say if he's wearing ring maille, he's wearing some kind of cloth under it. Body hair demands that. I found out.

You know, a secutor-type, wearing maille, with a large razor on his left arm is probably better armed than the retarius. I don't know if the trident would penetrate the rings, maybe not. In which case, he's fairly well invulnerable to attack. I play around with the soft point trident I made, but I wonder if I could deal with an opponent whose only unarmored points were thighs and neck. Not much of a target you know?

[Conal]

What about the thighs ...... they are bare ... vulnerable to prongy thing ?

[Medusa Gladiatrix]

I guess that if a gladiator was equipped with something like a lorica hamata or a lorica squamata he wore a tunic underneath which might be a bit shorter than the lorica so wouldn't see it. So it would've been similar to the soldiers.

Gladiators wore subligacula normally to show their virtus that they weren't afraid of the death. But usually they tried to protect their bare torso by some kind of a shield. But due to the fact that the scissor has no shield but two kinds of offensive weapons he needed some body protection either in the form of a squamata or hamata. So he was an exception to the general gladiator equipment.

[M. Demetrius]

But due to the fact that the scissor has no shield but two kinds of offensive weapons he needed some body protection

Hmm. I wonder if the dimachaerus (double sword fighter) wore a pectoral or something? If the logic you used is sound, then that should likewise follow. Yes?

I suppose if we put a dimachaerus in a pectoral, nobody would have too big of a fit. If they do, we'll give them their money back. As if we charge admission in the first place. No wait, a free ticket to the next performance. As if we charged....

Probably we'd just shrug and continue on like we see fit.

[Aurelianus]

I saw this interesting topic!

Junkelmann is of courese the most qualificated historian concerning the gladiators.

But!
With his meaning about the Scissor he goes surely wrong!!!! I make Gladiator-combats since 3 years now and I think I can say that its impossible that one Scissor fight against a Retiarius with his trident!!!! The chainmail protects not at all against a trident!!!!!!!! I've tried it! - Of course not with a real men -
One slug push with the trident penetrates the chainmail immediately! And there is no chance to parry fast pushes neither with the short-sword nor with the sickle-hand.

So the Scissor had either an other opponent or there have been fighting two Scissors against one retiarius - like in the case of the fight of two secutors against one pontiarius (retiarius on a "bridge").

Salve and have a nice year

[Medusa Gladiatrix]

Salve Patrik,

very interesting statement from you, a laudes point from me for it

But what would you say if the scissor wore a lorica squamata (scale armor) instead of the lorica hamata (coat of mail)? Would that be a better protection to the trident esp. if the scales are made onto a leather coat maybe a lit like a gambeson etc.?

Vale optime and Happy New Year to you, too

[Aurelianus]

Salve Medusa

As far as I can remember, there is no evidence to the use of the lorica segmentata by glatiators!

How ever: even if a Lorica Segmentata would be strong enough to resist against a good push of a trident (what I very doubt), the Scissor wouldn't be safed enough to fight against a Retiarius! Think about his legs!!!!! With a Lorica Segmentata up from the end of the shinbone until his pubis, the Scissor isn't saved at all!!!!!! It would be a very easy target for a retiarius!

[Aurelianus]

Medusa

Did you change the word lorica segmentata to lorica squamata, or did I read wrong before?

How ever:
The lorica squamata protects hardly better than a lorica hamata!!!!
The only advantage is that a trident could slip away if it strike the lorica hamata in a low angle.

In no case I like to fight as a Scissor without any other helps against a retiarius hock:

[Martin Moser]

With his meaning about the Scissor he goes surely wrong!!!! I make Gladiator-combats since 3 years now and I think I can say that its impossible that one Scissor fight against a Retiarius with his trident!!!! The chainmail protects not at all against a trident!!!!!!!!

Hm, I doubt this, for 2 reasons:

No 1. Chain mail with padded protective layer beneath: Have you seen the tests a Spanish gentlemen did with a 50 lbs bow and arrows with armor piercing tips at 5-10m distance against a piece of chain mail backed by quilted cloth, cited here on RAT a few times? No penetration. If we admit a Secutor to have worn chain mail (or scale for that matter), I cannot image him not to wear some thick, quilted material beneath it (otherwise chain mail would be no protection indeed) and then the odds should have been more even again.

No. 2: Helmet: the helmet such a distinct type that to me is quite a strong indicator for an opponent similar to that of the Secutor for me. About the details of such an opponent we cannot be totally sure, however, as it seems that he is not actually named anywhere known up to now.

And there is no chance to parry fast pushes neither with the short-sword nor with the sickle-hand.

As for that I can attest for the opposite. I've seen quite a few such fights over the last 3-4 years and there were many sucessful parries of the trident with the sickle-hand, and quite a few those were locking the trident effectively too in the process and bringing the retiarius to a distinct disadvantage.

To summarize, from what is known (to me at least ;-) ) ) IMHO I'd expect the Secutor to have a Retiarius-like opponent, though we cannot be sure there weren't any modifications in terms of what weapons such an opponent would have used.

[Conal]

There is an illustration of a relief in Junkelmans book showing a Secutor against a retiarius.

Looks like they fought each other and the net man.