Roman fortresses bearing a name with "castra"

[Tarbicus]

'Pidgin', or 'contact' latin - interesting.

[url:2gh45bav]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin[/url]

[Cepheus Germanicus]

Ave to all,

The change of gender and number of "castra" was certainly facilitated by another, indigenous fact: in Celtic, names in -a (such as -briga, -venta, -sessa) are 1st declination feminine [Rivet & Smith, 33].

Many Roman forts bore Celtic names, a fact so striking that Rivet & Smith (p. 347) admit "That Celtic names should have been adopted for Roman forts is something of a mystery."

It is certainly not! Simply look at the names of American army bases around the world. None of it is referred to as "base" or "army base", but e.g. Inçirlik, Okinawa, Guam, i.e. the local names.

Valete

Cepheus
aka Bernard Roobaert

"De minimis non curat praetor"

[D B Campbell]

You can strike your two British entries off the list.
There is no continuity of placename for either Castra Exploratorum (modern Netherby) or Pinnata Castra (which, in any case, is simply a Latinisation of a Greek term used by Ptolemy).

I must admit to being sceptical about your theory.
If you're researching continuity of placename from Roman times through to the present day, why restrict yourself to "Castra", which may not have been at all common in ancient times.

If a place was a fort or fortress, it was self-evident to anyone who needed to know, and they needn't have added the word castra. As far as I am aware, all of our "chester"s and "caster"s derive from Anglo-Saxon placenames. The Romans wouldn't (needn't) have used these terms as placenames, and the Saxons were simply indicating that they thought an ancient fortified place had stood there.

(I expect the same is true of your Arabic names, but I'm no expert in that field!)

[Cepheus Germanicus]

Ave to all,

The point I am trying to make is that a limited series of place-names in "kaster" "kester" (see posts above) could qualify Roman "forts", but the equivalence is anything but evident.

There is indeed no continuity between "castra Exploratorium" and its modern name. Neither so for "pinnata castra", indeed a term used by Ptolemy. These names are very important for the UK, as they are the only two ones attested in ancient sources.

As far as I know, there is no name known where roman "castra" has been transmitted in a modern-day descendant.

Better still, there is no evidence of ANY Roman fort simply being called "Castra".

I will post shortly a second list of Roman forts in "castra" in antique sources.

Valete

Cepheus
aka Bernard Roobaert

[Cepheus Germanicus]

Ave to all,

Here is a second list of place-names.

GERMANY
castra scelerata (see post before) is indeed cited by Suetonius

BULGARIA
Castra Martis (Koula)

FRANCE
Castra Constantia (Harfleur? Coutances?) (Amm. Marc. 15 XI 3)

HUNGARY
Ulcisia Castra (Szentendre on the Donau)
in the 4th cent. AD changed name in Castra Constantia

Castra ad Herculem ?? (Pilismarot) = is this Castrum Herculis in Illyricum cited by Jordanes 285?

Any help with Hungarian literature welcome!

SPAIN
Castrum Octavianum ?? (Sant Cugat del Vallès)

UNKNOWN
Castra Martis (Illyricum) (Jordanes, 262)

Valete omnes!

Cepheus
aka Bernard Roobaert

[D B Campbell]

In order to make my case, I would like any information on Roman fortresses that had a name with "castra" DURING the Roman period.

The UK examples are puzzling. I'm not convinced that these were the "official" names of the respective sites.

One (the so-called Pinnata Castra) derives from Ptolemy's list of "towns" in North Britain -- why did he choose to give it a Greek name, when other names are simply transliterated from Latin, indicating that they were actual placenames (e.g. TRIMONTION = Trimontium, Newstead; KLOTA = Clota, River Clyde). PTEROTON STRATOPEDON sounds as if it was simply a description, not a genuine placename. Curious.

The other (Castra Exploratorum) derives from the late "Antonine Itinerary", evidently an official list of staging points for those on imperial business -- why did the compiler employ proper placenames for all but the second-last point on the Richborough-Birrens route? Was he warning that, if you need to stop off here, all you'll get is an encampment of rather rough scouts (exploratores) and not the relative sophistication of a regular fort? Puzzling.

Incidentally, for Xanten, Tacitus refers to castra, quibus Veterum nomen est ("the camp whose name is Vetera": Hist. 4.18 ). He doesn't call the place Castra Vetera. At 4.21 and 5.14, he refers to "the old camp", vetera castra, because, in his own day, the big double camp had long since been decommissioned. I don't believe he intended this two-word phrase as a genuine placename.

Similarly, Suetonius says that Drusus died in the temporary camp quae ex eo scelerata sunt appellata ("which from that day was declared unlucky": Divus Claud. 1.3). Again, in my opinion, it is not clear that this was the official placename.

Perhaps I am splitting hairs, but these are points that it might be worth considering.

[Cepheus Germanicus]

Ave to all,

Thanks very much for the feed-back. These precise terminological remarks are exactly what we need.

The point that is being made for the UK is that Roman forts bearing a name in "castra" are indeed very rare.

I have a third list of castra-names I will be posting soon. In the meantime, all information on the subject, even if it looks trivial, is welcome. Also, bibliographical references are precious. Some of these are always "confidential" and it takes a lot of luck to stumble upon them.

Valete!

Cepheus
aka Bernard Roobaert
in Germania Secunda

"Homo sum, humani nil a me alienum puto" (Terentius)