Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Germans needed for National Geographic filming!
#1
Avete!

Didn't want anyone to miss this thread!

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=9245

If you have any suggestions for information on clothing and accoutrements, or where to get them in a hurry, chime in on that thread, please!

Thanks and Valete,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
Reply
#2
Hey Matthew, when you are there, please advise the makers that the Varus Battle was NOT fought in the Teutoburg forest, but in the Kalkriese Area in germany........

have fun and...

Best wishes!

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
Reply
#3
The "Varus Disaster" or however one calls it was not fought in just one place, but over a few days, 3 possibly even 4, with the Roman army moving. Kalkriese is just one part, probably the end, and that is how Tony Clunn sees it, and how the Roman historians (Vellius Paterculus, Tacitus, Dio Cassius) saw it even if their chronology is a little unclear.

It will be an exciting experience being part of even a small attempt at recreating the battle for the camera - and here in the US on the East Coast!

BTW - the filming dates have been postponed into the Fall sometime (date TBD), per Heidi. More info to follow, per Heidi.

Quinton Johansen
Marcus Quintius Clavus
Quinton Johansen
Marcus Quintius Clavus, Optio Secundae Pili Prioris Legionis III Cyrenaicae
Reply
#4
Quote:The "Varus Disaster" or however one calls it was not fought in just one place, but over a few days, 3 possibly even 4, with the Roman army moving. Kalkriese is just one part, probably the end, and that is how Tony Clunn sees it, and how the Roman historians (Vellius Paterculus, Tacitus, Dio Cassius) saw it even if their chronology is a little unclear.

That's true, but Marcus is also right: the battle was never fought at Teutoburg Forest.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
#5
That's true as Robert says. I was a bit spelling-challenged last night when posting, so decided not to tackle the whole situation with the "T... Forest". What is called the Teutoberg Forest today is, I seem to recall, a section of wooded hills renamed in more recent times to suit notions of where the Renaissance era and more modern Germans thought it should be.

Quinton/Marcus Quintius Clavus
Quinton Johansen
Marcus Quintius Clavus, Optio Secundae Pili Prioris Legionis III Cyrenaicae
Reply
#6
Salve!

I´m a member of group of germanic warriors around BC, located in northern Germany. Nice to see, that the interest in the history of the roman-germanic confrontation in northwest Germany is again subject for popular media.

My group did much research the last 5 years to get a close interpretation of the appearance of the germanic warriors who fought against and with the roman armies which campaigned right in front of my door from 9 BC to 16 AD. As students of archaeology and history we are able to work with mainly german written sources and artifacts.

Our interpretation is well received by both public and science and we already did a scripted combat display at Kalkriese, Germany, believed place of the Battle of Varus.

In short I can give some hints on equipment and clothing, which presents our latest interpretation on archaeological finds, pictorial evidence and contemporary written sources.


1) Types of warrior
Basically we can think of at least three types of germanic warriors for the given period:

- the tribal warrior, organized among social order of his community (clan, settlement, tribe). He followed his master into war as he does also in "civil" live. His master may also follow a master of the next higher social strata. He was lightly armed and useful for mobile
actions.

- the warrior of a "comitatus" or fellowship. Apparently better armed, he is a member of an inter tribal group of uncertain size. He followed an "charismatic" leader, as long as he provided him with good prospects of loot and employment for war . Such warriors didn´t live from farming but nearly like mercenaries, offering their service for inter tribal confrontations or even to roman authorities. The possible high grade of equipment could be taken from defeated enemies.

- Ex-auxiliarii. Left service after given period of time or deserted roman service, like Arminius fellow warriors did. At least idea of roman warfare if not trained along its terms. Possibly armed with roman equipment or a mix with german objects. They could have been cadres for tribal units of warriors for the uprising of 9 AD.

2) Organization
Tribal warriors were possibly arranged by 10s, 100s or even 1000s according to some military historians. This is still guess work as is the term "hunno" as a leader of a 100 men - unit. A 1000 men unit could have been arranged after a "pagus" ("Gau" in german, meaning "district" of a number of settlements of one tribe). In battle with big germanic armies the battle groups were arranged after tribes (Caesar, Bellum Gallicum).
Cavalry could have been deployed either on their own or combined with light infantry.

Well armed tribal chieftains or lower leaders together with their personal warriors formed the core of a unit, mainly filled with average or less armed tribal warriors. These certainly made the bulk of every germanic army of this period.
Comitati had an unknown size, but possibly enough to form an auxiliary unit (1 cohort, even later cohors equitata) otherwise more of warbands. Same is possibly for ex-auxiliarii.


3) Equipment
Main armament was a thrusting lance or/and a thrusting/throwing spear and javelins. They could be of late La Tène- and/or germanic pattern. Certain javelins heads were winged, being predecessors of the later ango or angon, but much shorter. Organic spear points, wooden clubs are possible, but there are currently no finds to confirm this for the given period (Hjortspring, DK is much earlier, the patterns are simple (antler heads) and could have been also used, arguable, around BC). Shafts were around man height or larger (ca. 230-240 cm) judging from later finds (Nydam, Thorsberg etc.).

Shields were of a made out of light wood or sometimes hardwood, one pieced or of a glued planked construction. Wickerwork shields might have possible too. Invariably they had shield bosses, either organic (late La Téne pattern out of wood, even circular wickerwork) or iron. There are two specific german styles of circular iron shield bosses: Either pointed and conical or conical with a blunt rod of 2 to 10cm. They had 4 to 10 domed rivets (then not arranged in pairs of twos or threes) of >2cm diameter.
Shield bodies were thin, from 15 to 4mm to the edges. Edges were sometimes lined partly with bronze rims. Raw hide strips could have been used too. Forms were basically rectangular, hexagonal to oval (pictorial evidence) or rounded to circular (most archaeological evidence). Sizes were around 90 x 50cm, more or less then this. Judging from written sources they were painted very brightly. At least blue and red combinations are archaeological evident.

Swords were apparently used only by noble warriors and so were distributed only thinly among the ranks. Looted weaponry of roman origin on a larger scale is possible only after the Battle of Varus.
There were two types of swords: Either single edged and short to medium length for slashing or double edged and long for slashing and/or thrusting. These were of german origin with only limited celtic influence. The single edged blades have no certain celtic predecessors and the double edged invariably had full metal sheaths. The ornaments and carrying attachments were much different to their celtic predecessors. It seems that baldrics were used.

There is no evidence of much use of any kind of body armour for the period in question. Ex-auxiliaries could have used roman equipment.

There is little evidence that bows and arrows were used for warfare, but clay sling shots were found in settlements. Axes seemed not to be taken as weapons, at least they were extremly seldom given into warrior graves and are more like tools.


3) Clothes
Tunics and trousers were worn certainly to a much greater degree then contemporary literatur suggest. Tunics were long sleeved or had no sleeves at all and could be combined. Trousers could be of knee or ankle length, but the first variation seemed to be more common. In difference to celtic styles all extremities were tightly cut.
Most important part was the sagum, the rectancular cloak of diverse quality and fastened on the right shoulder with a fibula.
Shoes were apparently of single piece construction.
Material was wool and linnen, possibly for undergarments.

4) Apperance
Most free man seemed to have long hair. Suebian knots were not only worn by suebinan tribes. Only slaves were short haired. Beards were well cared for. Hairstyles could be different from tribe to tribe.

5) Tactics
The bulk of the germanic was thus equipped with light shields and had spears/lances and a number of javelines. So they seemed to act mostly in light infantry roles. Even full armed warriors (shield, spear(s), javelines, sword) can be reagarded as light. Horsemen had basically the same equipment.

Judging from weaponry, written evidence, the germanic warriors tended to fight mainly by "hit and run". This could be basically the kind of warfare they conducted against each other, until roman style was quickly adopted . They were able also to "stand and hold" actions (Angrivarin Wall) or full scale assaults against camps and positions and pitched battles (Idistaviso). Moreover they were able to safely withdraw from combat. Not to forget, they fought on their on ground, in an environment alien to roman soldiers (but maybe not for local auxiliaries). Later the seemed to adopt roman tactics after using looted weaponry.



For some closer looks please refer to the few pics on our homepage:
CHASUARI
Especially:
[url:270ufui8]http://www.chasuari.de/galerie/galerie1frame.htm[/url]



mytwopence

ghandi
[Image: Kalkriese04.jpg]
Posed on the believed germanic fieldwork at Kalkriese
Robert Brosch
www.chasuari.de">www.chasuari.de
Germanic warriors of 1st ct. AD

www.comitatus.eu">www.comitatus.eu
Network of germanic Reenactors of 1st ct. AD
Reply
#7
LEG XIIII in West Virginia is gearing up to have alternate kits for German. We already have a couple members portraying Germans, and Britons.
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."


a.k.a. Paul M.
Reply
#8
have there been any helmets that have been able to be linked with ancient germans? i know about the celtic helmets but i do not know anything of any german headgear.
Brent Grolla

Please correct me if I am wrong.
Reply
#9
What I have researched and been told by several re-enactors and historians is that the germanic people at the time of the Teutoberg Forest battle is that the germanic people were not well armed. The most any common warrior would have is a sheild and a spear. Since metal was source of metal in germania was small not everyone afford to buy it. Only the ones in high status would have had helmet or even a sword, unless you joined the Roman army and defected!

Also, around this time Caesar is conquering Gual so the alliances between the germans and celts would have been stronger so trade for the germans would be more profitable, aka metal. Plus, after the battle the germans would have had access to three legions worth of chain, plate, and muscle armor, gladius and spathas, sheilds, and helmets. Not to mention three eagle standards! :twisted:

The Romans only conquered half way between the Rhine and Elbe rivers so a good number of tribes would have had access to roman gold, metal, and training oppurtunities.
Joshua B. Davis

Marius Agorius Donatus Minius Germanicus
Optio Centuriae
Legio VI FFC, Cohors Flavus
[url:vat9d7f9]http://legvi.tripod.com[/url]

"Do or do not do, their is no try!" Yoda
Reply
#10
Hi Ghandi et al,

I'd like to do a mounted German impression for the filming and am waiting to hear back from the organizers to see if this is possible. (Yeah, I'm a chick but I ride and want to play wif da boyz for once. Smile

Does anyone know anything about the types of saddles the Germans would have used, if they used them? The Romans had their saddles with the four pommels and no stirrups but would the Germans have used them or just ridden bareback? Or did they have something else? I haven't found much info on that.

Likewise, if there is other interest in a cav impression, let me know. I've got a friend who rents horses for reenactments and am trying to see if he can come out for the filming so you wouldn't have to bring your own.

Thanks in advance!

Deb
----------
Deb
Sulpicia Lepdinia
Legio XX
Reply
#11
I dont know wether in this specific battle horses were used, as it was an ambush, combined with a rolling battle deep inside the woods and marshed... so not too good of a territory for horsback fighting!

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
Reply
#12
Quote:so not too good of a territory for horsback fighting

That what I was wondering. But it wasn't all forest and stretched out for miles so you'd think that there would be a few mounted types around to head off the stragglers or run messages.
----------
Deb
Sulpicia Lepdinia
Legio XX
Reply
#13
There are no hints for genuin germanic saddles for the period. As far as I remember there is no one pictured in roman artwork too. A friend of mine rides without a saddle on his norwegian pony and is able to wield a lance twohanded.

Of course area of Kalkriese (when taken for the place of the Varus battle) was not the vietnamlike jungle reoman writers sometimes suggest. Especially this place was already cultivated since at least the early iron age, if not even longer before this. There were settlements around there. This gives us an enviroment of large spots of relatively open country with secondarily forrested areas.
Beside this, cavalry was always needed when an army was marching through hostile areas for scouting. There was germanic cavalry mentioned by roman writers (Tacitus) in the battles during Germanicus´ campaigns and they were enganged in pitched battles, sometimes with roman cavalry (Battle of Idistaviso). Atually there was a cavalry onslaught in a forest during this battle.


ghandi
Robert Brosch
www.chasuari.de">www.chasuari.de
Germanic warriors of 1st ct. AD

www.comitatus.eu">www.comitatus.eu
Network of germanic Reenactors of 1st ct. AD
Reply
#14
ANyone know if they still need Romans or Auxiliaries for this? If not, who are the "lucky" Romans.

V/r
Mike
Mike Daniels
a.k.a

Titus Minicius Parthicus

Legio VI FFC.


If not me...who?

If not now...when?
:wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:
Reply
#15
For anyone still interested in participating, use the connection in Matt Amt's first post here to go to his primary announcement. From there, you should be able to contact Heidi at National Graphic. It is best to contact her directly, so that she has an accurate count.
The film date is To Be Determined - sometime this fall, probably in Maryland, assuming they stick to the site they were previously looking at. I assume that several from Legio XX will be participating as several of them have the appropriate gear. Members of my legion, Legio III Cyrenaica, will be traveling down from the New England region. I am going regardless of what other activities may be impacted.
I have no idea how many German reenactors she has so far. There may be more of them needed, now, than legionaries. As an auxiliary, someone could fight for either Romans or Germans, since Arminius' men were technically serving in the capacity of auxiliaries before they deserted.

Regarding horsemen/cavalry: Caesar, in his Commentaries on the Gallic War, hired German cavalry - noting that they actually were mixed units of cavalry and infantry. I am sure that Arminius used mounted warriors; chieftains and their personal warrior retainers would have likely been mounted.
Now, as to whether Heidi and National Geographic can accomodate horsemen, people will have to contact her. The British Channel 4 production did have a few mounted individuals/and we did have the one "wacko" horse for Caesar in the History Channel's "Engineering an Empire". I suspect it will come down to how manageable the horse is and whether the animal or animals can tolerate being around men in armor with pointed weapons or wearing things life wolf or bear pelts.

Finally, I have no objection to a woman participating in a warrior capacity. She may have to portray a man, as I don't know whether the Germans would have women fighting in this battle. The sources are silent, though they (the sources) are Roman, and therefore may not have acknowledged the presence of women as it would make the defeat look even more shameful than it already was.

Quinton/Marcus Quintius Clavus, Optio Secundae Pili Prioris Legionis III Cyrenaicae
Quinton Johansen
Marcus Quintius Clavus, Optio Secundae Pili Prioris Legionis III Cyrenaicae
Reply


Forum Jump: