That\'s it, folks... I\'ll have a go at making a linothorax!

[Anonymous]

Guys..., (hate to say this...), but I've study SO MANY photos (from Hoplite's festivals) these passed days... I'm also checked many "Roman festival's" photos... and came to some conclusions.

The Roman Army's re-construction kits (panoply, helmet, etc.) looking "more" close to the "real-original" thing...

The Greek Hoplite re-construction kits, looking FANTASTIC,... but "less" close to the "real" thing...

I'm explaining myself:

Because of the BRONZE material, these Hoplites' armor parts that I've study in the photos, looking quite "strange" and like they are mad by COPPER! :?
TOO MUCH bright metalic parts, for my opinion; and the most important, BRONZE CAN'T remain too much time SO BRIGHT!

What's the "catch" in these FINE Hoplite's parts that I've seen?

They are MODERN MADE weapons! With MODERN techniques and MOST important, MODERN tools & polish methods!

To me, if I would buy or create (kind of difficult to me) a Bronze Hoplite Panoply, I would KEEP it always... looking quite "used".

So... again I'm sorry, don't get me wrong, all I want is to share a thought that MAYBE will be usefull to you,...
... maybe you all should "add" some "aging" on the metalic parts.
Of course, the "Linothorax" or any other FABRIC parts would be "aged" in the Ancient Times, but FIXING/CORRECTING a fabric part is a fast job to do, even durring a battle's pause...

Also... about some plumes I've checked; plumes were horse-hair, yes? But how the Ancienst have these FINE plumes SO LONG high?

They were... "gum" these hairs together, with primeval kind of gum (don't remember exaclty the "elements" of that gum, I must re-check my books).
So... after so many conflicts, these plumes were TACKY in the exterior parts, but STILL "glued" in the inside parts, close to the helmet...
(Also, in some Spartan Officer's helmet I've seen, the "hair-tails" are TOO SORT...)

And... the colors, mates. Too much of many different colors... Colors were NOT SO MANY, in the Ancient Times.
RED (actually, "earth-red", like pantile), was the number ONE color. Not only Spartans, almost everybody used the red.
It's common sence why... Red soil & clay is EVERYWHERE in Mediterranean era!
Light "sky" blue, purple, orange... very RARE (if not say, non-existent).
Yellow was one of the colors (from onion's melting)...

(Anyway, I must re-check my books, I can't recall all these infos from my mind... I'm getting old...)

Anyway... that's some thoughts of mine... Fellows' Hoplite kits are looking FANTASTIC, like I said, but to me... a bit of TOO GREAT to looking like we travel back to time and saw REAL Hoplites...

Regards and sorry if I sound like a jerk!

Okay:-

Most re-enactors, as Jason points out, wear brass, rather than bronze. This stuff looks too yellow to pass for bronze (and FAR too yellow for copper). In the case of members of the Hoplite Association, we have agreed to equip ourselves with brass armour precisely because of the prohibitive cost of buying the bronze stuff. At the International Festival, we had people from all over the world and therefore I got my bronze kit out. If anyone looked as if he was wearing copper, it would have been I - and I alone.

For the same reason (COST!) we are prepared to use kit made by modern methods, using modern tools.

I accept most of what you say, but I do disagree about the bright colours and shiny metalwork. I have many examples of naturally dyed wool and linen here which have very bright colours, as good as synthetic dyes. I agree that they are likely to fade faster than synthetics but, judging by evidence from Homer, the Ancient Greeks were immensely impressed by well woven, brightly-coloured material and dead keen to wear it.

As to armour losing its polish, the answer is one word - slaves. If a linothorax can be fixed in a pause between battles, a Bronze thorax can certainly be polished in such a period.

I think you may be right in thinking that there would be less colour in the horsehair crests, but I don't know enough about dyeing horsehair to be certain. I do believe that itis characteristic of warrior elites to be the world's biggest tarts ( loving to dress in splendour). Why else would we want to re-enact them?

Not sure I agree with you about the crest fixative, either! - but I don't think you sound like a jerk.

[Endre Fodstad]

I might be a bit late here, but a few days ago one of our people dug up a late 15th century source in late medieval swedish on how to make a "Strids Vaakn":

"Take 8 parts fish glue made from swimming bladder with 2 parts mastic and mix it. With this glue together three or four layers of canvas (presumably rather thick) and put it over a shape resembling the body (to mould it) and when it is dried iron won't bite this harness".

Relevant? I don't know. Interesting? Possibly?

[Anonymous]

I might be a bit late here, but a few days ago one of our people dug up a late 15th century source in late medieval swedish on how to make a "Strids Vaakn":

"Take 8 parts fish glue made from swimming bladder with 2 parts mastic and mix it. With this glue together three or four layers of canvas (presumably rather thick) and put it over a shape resembling the body (to mould it) and when it is dried iron won't bite this harness".

Relevant? I don't know. Interesting? Possibly?

It's fascinating, Endre. We've had a lot of discussion about whether cloth armour might be glued or sewn and what type of glue might have been used. Clearly, this is a case of glueing, which answers one question (if only for a specific instance) and it tells us what type of glue to use. Mind you, I, for one, am not about to race off to make glue from fishes' swim bladders!

I accept that this is a very late example(practically modern!), and only one instance from a country far away, but I believe that mastic was available to the Ancient Greeks, too, and we KNOW they used some form of linen armour, so it seems to have some bearing on our earlier linothorax discussions. I am NOT assuming that this means linen armour was never sewn - I would imagine that both types were used.

[Dan Howard]

There is no evidence to suggest that glue was used by the Greeks. The few sources we have specifically suggest the opposite. Jason has done the most thorough examination of the sources regarding this matter.

There are practical considerations too. Experiments suggest that quilting actually provides better protection than gluing - especially against thrusting attacks. There is also the problem of sweat causing the layers to delaminate if animal glues are used.

[Endre Fodstad]

There are practical considerations too. Experiments suggest that quilting actually provides better protection than gluing - especially against thrusting attacks. .

Haven't testet glued textile layers, nor seen any decent articles on it, so I can't say, but quilted textile is definitely excellent protection, especially against arrows. However, in my experience, the kind of textile used - wool felt? Thick layers of wool fleece? Thin, thick-woven linen? - all have a lot of impact on resistance, as does the spacing of stitchings and the width of the canals.

There is also the problem of sweat causing the layers to delaminate if animal glues are used.

That would't pose much of a problem with the swim bladder glue recommended in the late medieval source. While it can be dissolved by longtime immersion in water or months and months of 100% humidity exposure, it is resistant enough to be used without too many problems. I don't know if it was used in ancient times, but it was common in dirt in most of the medieval period (i.e. the part of it we got sources for), and while it cannot be proven, it is likely that it was used earlier as well.

[hoplite14gr]

Endre I have afeeling that you must read this thread:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=2630
Have the patience to go though it.
Some experiment even "silly ones" provide an insight.
Kind regards