That\'s it, folks... I\'ll have a go at making a linothorax!

[Dan Howard]

I had made some quick visits to the thread before, but have now scoured it thoroughly and found quite some useful information.

My current aim is to create a linothorax consisting of a leather core, with approx. four layers of linen glued and fixed to each side, and the inner layer of pteruges attached to the inside of the linothorax separately.

It may be that my brother, who, at a side note, once was to the UK to re-enact the Battle of Hastings, has some spare leather (he was an avid 'liver' back then, mainly doing fantasy stuff).

*Dashes off to make the papyrothorax*

Don't use leather. Best and most cost effective solution is to use around a dozen layers of cotton covered inside and outside with linen and quilted together using vertical rows of stitches. The closer the rows of stitches, the stiffer the end product.

[Matthew Amt]

Agreed, if you decide not to glue. You may need to cut everything a little larger than your pattern, though, if you are quilting, since that tends to make the garment "shrink" or contract. My medieval gambeson came out a couple inches shorter than I had cut it after I quilted it, but it is just 2 layers of linen with cotton batting between. Not sure if layered canvas/linen would do the same thing, but better safe than sorry. You can always trim a little off before final assembly.

By the way, I was lucky enough to get my linen for only $3 per yard, so the total cost of my linothorax was less than a side of leather would have been. But usually you can't get linen that cheap, so cotton canvas is an option. IF you don't mind people pointing and sneering (just kidding!).

In any case, OO-RAH, go for it!! It's not madness until you make the shield, too!

Khairete,

Matthew

[Jason Hoffman]

Comerus, The image you posted it is one i have not come across before, can you tell me where it has come from? or which vase it is?

Thanks

Jason

[Jason Hoffman]

Thanks

[Susanne]

Paul and the other hoplites would KILL me for using cotton as the framework of the linothorax... :?

To quote from the Hoplite Association's website - specifically, http://www.4hoplites.com/Linothorax.htm :

DO NOT build from cotton or canvas as a substitute or to reduce the overall material cost by putting these layers underneath a facing, linen one. This is false economy as the various cloth properties react differently with the glue. The strength of a linen build arises partly from the way in which the linen absorbs vast amounts of adhesive.

and http://www.4hoplites.com/Reenactment.htm :

Under no circumstances use cotton.

And yes, I'm going to glue the layers!

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

About a year ago I did some el quicko experiments with glued and unglued fabrics, that dont really prove anything. I posted these on the Linothorax thread. I wont repeat the various combinations here, because anyone wh wants to can look them up. The final impression I got, is that for some types of defense, stitched and unglued fabric was fine. This applies, in particular, to some pictorial and literary evidence circa 350 b.c onward. I point out in specific, the Volterra Urn pictured on pg. 81 of Connolly.

As Jason Hoffman has pointed out, there is a school of thought that the linothorax was not glued, but stitched. Until we find one on a skeleton still clutching a note from the Stratagoi approving the owner's linothorax as standard issue, we may argue the construction forever. And even then...

To totaly evade the issue, I took the easy way out and plunked down the deposit for a Manning Imperial Bell, circa 550. However if I was to make lino based on playing with the materials I did a year ago and following the lino thread, this is what I intend to do, and may do if I get the urge. I am still bogged down with my Boeotian shield, which is now being sanded down. (This is an expansion of Mat Amp's Aspis design. I is working out better than I thought it might, BTW.)

1. Pre-shrink everything, Dump it in very hot water and let dry in the sun.

2. Use two weights of linen. The inner and outer shell is of heavy flax linen which is sold at art supply stores. It is a slightly brown color. You get to paint the outer shell anyway you want, anyway. It is not as cheap as "canvas".

3. Use about 14 layers of thin 'linen" inside. The stuff I used in the experiment was sold as "Onsager", or something like that. It is of uneven weave and has a lot of tensile strength. It is cheap, and can be removed from your mother-in-law's drapes for free, for which it is the lining.

Stitch according to the lines of the different "panels" that are seen on illustrations and such. The outer heavy flax linen when painted and covered by some resin-like waterproofing makes things stiff. It has been pointed out by Hoplite14gr that modern army gear is often coated with a smelly pine resin. This is so, and presumably would not have offended ancient sensibilities. A more acceptable modern substitute may be Elmer's Glue.

I think this may work, although I have not tried this combination to any great extent. Those of you who perceive I am making a mistake, please let me know before I do try this.

LYKAON,
or
Gaius Decius Aquilius,
depending on my mood.

(Ralph Izard)
otherwise

[Dan Howard]

Paul and the other hoplites would KILL me for using cotton as the framework of the linothorax... :?

To quote from the Hoplite Association's website - specifically, http://www.4hoplites.com/Linothorax.htm :

DO NOT build from cotton or canvas as a substitute or to reduce the overall material cost by putting these layers underneath a facing, linen one. This is false economy as the various cloth properties react differently with the glue. The strength of a linen build arises partly from the way in which the linen absorbs vast amounts of adhesive.

and http://www.4hoplites.com/Reenactment.htm :

Under no circumstances use cotton.

And yes, I'm going to glue the layers!

The alleged use of glue is based almost entirely on the fact that the shoulder flaps in illustrations appear to be "springy". The same result can be achieved by quilting. Quilting will also produce an armour that more effectively resists arrows and spear thrusts. There is absolutely no evidence that glue was used and some evidence to specifically suggest that it wasn't. IMO glue will not produce an accurate reconstruction. If glue is not used then cotton will not cause any problems - though of course, if you can make it entirely from linen, so much the better.

[Susanne]

I have my leather pieces ready - I was delighted to figure that I have sufficient quantities of it to make the core.

I can't see any reason whatsoever for it not to come to use!

[Dan Howard]

Leather won't breathe. You will sweat profusely and overheat much faster than if you only used textiles made from natural fibres. Linen, cotton or hemp would do well.

[hoplite14gr]

I agree with Dan that leather was less likely at least in the classical period.
As for "Leather won't breathe" that depends on how it is procecced.
I was wearing my thracian boots at Watford with no problem and it was a very hot day.
Kind regards

[Susanne]

Most of the hoplites whom I got the opportunity to talk to during the Festival used leather cores... all of whom seemed to endure the heat very well. But then, as Stefanos said, it's all a matter of how the leather is processed, really.

[Dan Howard]

Layers of leather glued together will not breathe at all. It doesn't particularly matter how the leather is processed or what glue you use.

[Jason Hoffman]

Leather is not supported by any archaelogical evidence.

[Susanne]

Noone would pay attention to the leather core anyway... with four linen layers glued onto each side, no?
If leather cores are that inauthentic, why would such a dedicated organization as the Hoplite Association use them?

Layers of leather glued together

Did you guys actually believe that I want to make a linothorax of all leather? hock:

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

I just found this out on a trip to a better stocked art supply store. There is a glue called "Rabbit Skin" which is apparently made from little bunnies. This is the older more traditional way of preparing a flax linen canvas for painting. the rabbit skin glue comes in a crystal form and you dissolve it on the stove in water. Apply two coats on a canvas. Then coat the canvas with "oil paint medium". This is a lead based whitewash with health warning stickers all over.

I asked the store clerk what she knew about both items. She told me it was the "old way to prepare a canvas." This means pre-1960 as far as the art world is concerned. What I get is that the heavy flax based canvas sold today is for people who want to copy the old masters. Rembrandt, da Vinci, etc. So is the lead based whitewash. As both have been in use for some time, they may be workable for a linothorax. As I stated on a previous post, it might be desirable for the outer and inner shell to be made from this heavy flax linen. The rabbit skin glue is supposed to be a stiffener for a "canvas" but leaves it still flexable to roll an old canvas up when removed from the frame, as seen on many art theft movies. No guarantee the Greeks used either in making a linothorax, but rabbits and lead based paints have been around a long time. I am not inclined to want to experiment with this stuff because I am soft when it comes to animals.

LYKAON
or
GDA
(Ralph Izard)