Rome again, but just a quick question, about the helmets

[Woadwarrior]

quick question about the rome hbo series

i know this is from musuem replicas (not good for reenactors)
but is this helemt from the rome series ana ccurate piece?

http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/ ... elmet.aspx

[Chuck Russell]

nope

i believe it is a bad copy of a Trajen's column helmet... and i'm not sure if any of them were ever found.

there are so many examples of existing helmets for romans, why did ROME the series have to make one up?

[Caius Fabius]

This looks like an accurate copy of one of the helmets from the ROME HBO series. It is not an accurate copy of any historical helmet. Museum Replicas company is very good at copying Hollywood arms and armor and selling them to the public. I guess it all depends on what you want to spend your money upon.

[sseverus]

I find it quite expensive for an inaccurate helmet.
If you want a good helmet, take a look at following topic http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=7378 ).

Nico

[Woadwarrior]

i know musuem replicas is for hollywood not reenactors

anyway thats what i suspected about the helmet
what metal is that brass? did the romans use that metal?

[Titus Amatius Paulus]

The romans uses in their helmet two materials: bronze and iron. In the Caesarian era all helmets are of bronce but start to adopt the iron ones by Gallic influence.

I don´t know which metal use in the Rome HBO´s series.

Most of the replicas of bronze helmets are made of brass, of bronze are more rare and expensive and is very rare find the exact alloy of "gold bronce" (poor in tin) used in the antiquity not of "silver bronce" (rich in tin) more comon actually, the reason of this is in the antiquity the tin was more expensive than the copper and now is the reverse.

[Graham Sumner]

Actually the helmets in the Rome series were based on an original helmet.
We have had this discussion on another thread somewhere.

The helmet was supposedly found at Emesa in Syria and has appeared in a couple of books for example G.Watson's the Roman soldier. The centurions version in the series simply added a transverse crest in place of the the ring crest. Unlike the series the original had also been silvered.

Robinson however argued that the helmet, which is now in America was a fake. In any case it would have been better for the makers of Rome to have used any of the classic Montefortino types as indeed should anyone making replicas.

Graham.

[tlclark]

It's currently in the Cleveland Museum of Art I believe, and Robinson said it was a fake but his analysis is based on style but not on manufacture. Rejecting an object on established style since so much of what we have represents isolates is risky. Even then the manufacturing is suspect.

The thing is solid silver which is very odd and it looks like a style only seen on Trajan's Column.

Now, my take on it (remember I'm an art historian) is that it would be very unlikely for an artist to create such an unusual form out of nothing. It would be far easier to create a conglomerate of existing forms. There's really no impetus for an artist to create something THAT specific and unusual.

So where does that leave us?

Here's a speculation based on my interpretation of the facts.

I don't have the knee-jerk objection to evidence coming from the ToC, so we should look at it critically.
Syria is not known for cranking out fakes like this. Had this come from Italy (forgery central) I would be very suspicious.
Silver makes it suspicious unless its purpose is misunderstood.

I think that there's a good chance it might be a parade/votive piece This would change the entire context of the object and explain it's odd material and manufacture.

That being said, Graham is right. Even if it is genuine, it's rare and a monteforino would be much more accurate.

[Narukami]

Interesting points TLC.

Would someone actually use a solid silver helmet in combat?

As a parade or dress helmet...that does seem more likely. In which case it could well be more stylized than practical in its design even if it did use an actual combat helmet as the original template.

With regards to the HBO Rome series, we are right back where we were on the the other discussion (as Graham rightly points out): Why choose an exception as you model when more plentiful examples the the "mainstream" helmets (or other items of kit) exist?

This is a odd production design decision on the part of the series costume designer. It would seem to me that producing costume replicas of the Syrian Helmet would be no easier than using any number of Montefortino examples as a template.

Obviously the producers felt that their helmet looked more "Roman" than did the more historically correct Montefortino. I think this is due in large part to Hollywood which has done so much so influence how we think Ancient Romans "should" look.

Current Hollywood using 'Old' Hollywood as its guide to historic accuracy.
:?

Narukami

[tlclark]

Interesting points TLC.

Thanks.

This is a odd production design decision on the part of the series costume designer. It would seem to me that producing costume replicas of the Syrian Helmet would be no easier than using any number of Montefortino examples as a template.

I think it's obvious that the production design for HBO involved a working lunch with a salesman from Museum Replicas and no one else.


Travis

[Narukami]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Indeed.


Narukami

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!

Bronze (copper and tin) was indeed used for helmets during the Republic, but around the reign of Augustus, brass (copper and zinc) comes into use for military items. The Roman word for brass was orichalcum. For Caesar's era, I expect bronze was the rule, but I'm not certain. Many modern writers play it safe and just say "copper alloy" when refering to an item which has not been scientifically analyzed to determine its exact content. But some just say either "bronze" when it could be brass, or vice versa. Brass and bronze will both vary in color depending on the amount of tin or zinc, and to make matters worse some Roman items have BOTH zinc and tin. And of course anything dug up by archeologists is going to be green or brown, not nice and shiny like when it was new, so the color of an artifact may not tell you much about what it's made out of.

My guess is that most of the helmets in the series were plastic or fiberglass, painted to (sort of) look like metal. That's very common in the movie industry, to save a ton of money, and to make things lighter for the actors.

One big problem with the MRL helmet (aside from what it's based on) is the texture of little hammer-dimples all over. I suppose that's to make it look "hand-made", but hand-forged helmets didn't look like that. Even surviving Roman helmets that were not carefully finished and still have visible hammer marks don't look like that!

The added "antiquing" is another problem--the metal would be shiny in ancient times.

Valete,

Matthew

[Woadwarrior]

well thanx for the replys everybody
i wont be able to post anymore cause schools ending and im going to europe
so bye everybody
have a nice summer!

[Robert Vermaat]

well thanx for the replys everybody
i wont be able to post anymore cause schools ending and im going to europe
so bye everybody
have a nice summer!

Try to visit some Roman ruins while you are visiting us.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

A silver helmet?

In combat have no sense. silver is very soft and breakable.

Is very suspicious that helmet are very close to the Trajan Column representations. I think it makes think that it's a fake piece. At XIX century there was a lot of "fake makers", most of they archeologist, making reproductions to prove their theorys or to be considered by the cientific comunitity.

They make jewelry, helmets, epigraphy, fossils, etc...

And, of course, if you want to depict a cesarian army, give them a usual helmet: montefortino type. More correct was a combination of montefortinos, coolus, and gallic Agen-Port and derivatives.