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How Do I Address the Emperor?
#1
Say I was writing a historical novel (which I am not!), how would an official refer to his master, the emperor? Or even a Dux or Count? At this point (380s - 420s) the nobility were really going for elite status weren't they, no pretensions of being princeps or anything.

"Your orders come straight from His High Eminence, His Glorious Majesty, Theodosius"??

IN Chris Scarre's book Chronicle of the Roman Emperors, he gives the full Latin titles for all emperors up to the early 3rd century, then cuts off. Can I find THeodosius' full imperial titles anywhere????
~ Paul Elliott

The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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#2
I'd say "carefully" :-) )

More seriously, though, I *am* writing a novel, and I will have Theodosius (and Valens, and Gratian, Honorius, and Stilicho, and...) and therefore I am very interested in this thread!

Senior officers were directed by the soldiers as meus dominus, 'my lord.' I wouldn't expect anything lower to Excelsus/Excelsior when addressing a Cristian emperor (pagan ones would be, directly, Divine)... maybe even His Sanctity, like the current Roman Catholic Pope (other popes-- and I ain't saying which ones -- aren't addressed like that, though, hehe :-) ) ), except that Theodosius was the first Roman Emperor not to accept the pontifex maximus title, so I'm at a loss...

thanks for asking!
Episkopos P. Lilius Frugius Simius Excalibor, :. V. S. C., Pontifex Maximus, Max Disc Eccl
David S. de Lis - my blog: <a class="postlink" href="http://praeter.blogspot.com/">http://praeter.blogspot.com/
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#3
Currently I'm running with: His Excellency, Imperator Caesar Augustus Flavius Theodosius

But there is nothing particularly 'divine' in there. What does Excelsior mean??
~ Paul Elliott

The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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#4
Theodosius' coin inscriptions go: DN THEODOSIVS P F AVG = "Dominus Nostre (Our Lord) Theodosius Pius (dutiful) Felix (fortunate) Augustus." P F is also sometimes translated "Perpetuus Felici", so P F could mean "ever fortunate."

So "Lord" (Dominus or Domine) continued in use well into the Christian period, and does not seem to have conveyed divinity, but just a higher station or rank.

A quick check of inscriptions on record from the time of Theodosius indicates "Our ever-victorious, eternal master the Augustus" seems to be a nearly universal way of referring to the emperor, no matter who he may be.

Other honorific epephets of the Late Roman era include illuster, spectabilis, honoratus, clarissimus, perfectissimus, and my favorite, egregius.
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
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#5
By the 7th C. Dominus is replaced by Basileos, but I have no idea when the transition takes place. Certainly not before Justinian's era. I would go with Dominus as the common everyday title. They only ever dragged out the full thing for high ceremony, monuments and coinage.

Also for those writing novels -( I won't say which camp I'm in) What's the opinion of translating or not translating terms. Often in novels I find that they use the full latin titles. Of course Latin isn't the high formal dead ancient language for them that it is for us. "Lord" would be more natural and accurate in a novel, I think, likewise all of the other titles.

It may sound corny to say 'first spear' 'leader' 'master' and other pedestrian terms but I think that would be more natural to the Roman's understanding.

David, when the novel's finished, can we get signed first editions? Big Grin

Travis
Theodoros of Smyrna (Byzantine name)
aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

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#6
Travis,

interesting questions, you know? As I am moving through time quite liberally in my three projects in the works (Mykeanean Greece, Achaemenid Egypt (and Pericles's Athens), and late Roman Empire with the Goths) my standards have been changing and evolving...

As of late I've settled in something like this:

When there's no satisfactory term in Spanish (which is my current writing language, although that may change in the future; and of course, if I manage to get published, I'd expect to be translated to, at least, 38 other languages, hehe ;-) ) ) I use the Latin/Original one, specially if its a significant name, title or rank.

(For example limes instead of "Frontier")

I do so as well to mark a difference between ancient and current meanings, which I consider important to have in mind, as important to the timeframe and historical context.

(E.g.: comes and dux, which in modern Spanish are conde and duque, but that due to the development of nobility in Spain, a Duke has always Greatness and it's the first in the queue after the Monarchy (duces are always Great of Spain, usually given to non-ruling heirs of the crown) while a Count can be Great or not, and it's always below the corresponding Marquess, which is always below a Duke, Great or not. Therefore, following this scheme, I consider misleading calling the character "Count Belisarius" (not in my novel, of course, but in general) instead of Comes Belisarius, because the title is decieving. Comes Belisarius is better, and people gets, eventually, used to it.

Of course, a good glossary of terms at the end helps, and a short explanation in the text can be handy, although pedant at times if it's unnatural. This, of course, may be changed by an Editor if the writer has not sound arguments like mine to defend this position, which can be unpopular, but I think necessary to give the novel the right feeling, contextually speaking.

The same criteria, of course, apply to some titles in Greek, Egyptian, Persian, Phoenician, etc (kybernetes, polemarkhos, etc) which I use sporadically, basically when I feel it's a good time to remind the reader we are in the past which is different from the present, in thinking, and in the way of living (I'm not going to pretend I am such a good writer that readers eventually forget this is a novel in the past, because I am sure I am not, but I do tend to lose myself into the past while writing, these are also "notes to self"... :-) ) )

Lord, master, etc.. are common names and therefore I would use them in Spanish as well, but primipilus would be a title, either I'd be forced by an editor (which I don't yet have) to use an equivalent modern title in the military (master sargent, or something like that) or it would go in Latin.

Anyway, this is changing and evolving while I test the equilibrium interface and find the right dynamical tension between correctness and comfortability for the readers, which are the primary focus of a novel, even a historical one. For example, in the Goths/Romans novel, I am transcribing names as they'd sound to a Spanish ear depending on the context I want the reader to think in: Alarīks in a Gothic context, but Alarico (Spanish name, from Latin Alaricus) in a Roman one (including own late Alaric's POV, and if writing in English I'd use Alaricus, yes...); Paulo Cornelio Ruber Theodorico instead of Paulo Cornelio Ruber Thiudarīks[/i] in all instances, except where an all Gothic-and-no-Roman POV is expressed (like, e.g. an anti-Roman Gothic character who wants to remind Paulo of his Gothic origins), and so on... In this last case, Theodoricus would be the normal Roman way of pronouncing Thiudarīks in Antiochia per Orontem, where the character got finally adopted by a Roman senator (eek! :-) ) ) In this case I have bet for using the aspirated consonants instead of the voiced Spanish equivalents (i.e. Theodorico instead of the usual Teodorico) so the readers don't forget this is not the old History they preferred to forget when they were younger (years ago it was compulsory to learn the complete list of Visigoth kings from Alaric (or Athaulf) onwards, a very long list! People tend to hate the Goths for that, and I want them to enjoy the novel!)

Of course, if I ever find an Editor to publish my novel, I'd hand some signed first editions to the people who's helping me, as well as a proper acknowledgement in the book itself (if you can read Spanish, count on it :-) ) ).

This is the Fate of amateur writers, at least for the time being. Anyway, I am a slow writer, I tend to investigate carefully (or at least as carefully as I can afford) and try to make the novels historically (and specially hoplologically!) sound; that makes me slower...

Hope this extremely long reply is helpful in solving any doubts.

BTW, if you don't write, and you'd like to, Just Do So! Writing Historical Fiction/Novels, from someone who likes the time period, is extremely gratifying, writing a novel (as opposed to shorter works, which I have done many times) is an experience to be felt, the difference is not just cuantitative, as I used to think, there's really a qualitative difference in writing a novel, a depth that good novels can afford (I stress the "good" part, bad novels are a shallow as a raindrop)... If you already write, tell us! :-P P

Thanks for all the help, really!

aue atque uale

PS- a shameless plug: I blog with some regularity about my writing as it relates to the History or Hoplology behind the curtain, the blog is de praeterito tempore and I have some links to other places where I also discuss these things with other writers or knowledgeable people... Please, feel free and more than welcome to visit and participate...
Episkopos P. Lilius Frugius Simius Excalibor, :. V. S. C., Pontifex Maximus, Max Disc Eccl
David S. de Lis - my blog: <a class="postlink" href="http://praeter.blogspot.com/">http://praeter.blogspot.com/
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#7
Perfect, perfect. My thanks for that! It is an official ocassion, an imperial notary addressing a fortress garrison on behalf of the emperor.

Quote:Theodosius' coin inscriptions go: DN THEODOSIVS P F AVG = "Dominus Nostre (Our Lord) Theodosius Pius (dutiful) Felix (fortunate) Augustus." P F is also sometimes translated "Perpetuus Felici", so P F could mean "ever fortunate."

So "Lord" (Dominus or Domine) continued in use well into the Christian period, and does not seem to have conveyed divinity, but just a higher station or rank.

A quick check of inscriptions on record from the time of Theodosius indicates "Our ever-victorious, eternal master the Augustus" seems to be a nearly universal way of referring to the emperor, no matter who he may be.

Other honorific epephets of the Late Roman era include illuster, spectabilis, honoratus, clarissimus, perfectissimus, and my favorite, egregius.
~ Paul Elliott

The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
Reply
#8
David,

Thanks for the informative post. It's hugely helpful (Ok, so I am writing something!) More as a diversion from my day-job, which is writing the dissertation.

I will definitely check out the blog.

Thanks.
Theodoros of Smyrna (Byzantine name)
aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

Moderator, RAT

Rules for RAT:
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?Rules">http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?Rules for posting

Oh! and the Toledo helmet .... oh hell, forget it. :? <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" />:?
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#9
Quote:I'd say "carefully"

Yes, otherwise it could be "Hail Caesar, we about to salute you, die! :wink: "
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
PHILODOX
Moderator
[Image: fectio.png]
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#10
Quote:
Quote:I'd say "carefully"

Yes, otherwise it could be "Hail Caesar, we about to salute you, die! :wink: "

Hehe...

aue Caesar morituri te salutant

I wonder if they ever said such a sentence... With some of the Emperor, I can easily imagine this, on the other hand, there are a handful of Emperors I don't think able to enjoy such a thing... Fl. Claudius Julianus, for example, as a philosopher, looks really like he would never enjoy such things (not that he had time ti really settled long enough for games to held, OTOH)

But, yes, things would have evolved from the late republican quirites, and conscriptos patres in the Senate, to Diuus Iulius, Augustus and go and go as time passed... I am sure the 5 Good Emperors (Antonini), Diocletian, Constantin, Julian and Theodosius II were key points in the History of the Empire... but that's just my opinion...

Anyway, Diuus or not Diuus, he's the Boss, just be careful... ;-) )

uale!
Episkopos P. Lilius Frugius Simius Excalibor, :. V. S. C., Pontifex Maximus, Max Disc Eccl
David S. de Lis - my blog: <a class="postlink" href="http://praeter.blogspot.com/">http://praeter.blogspot.com/
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