Slave re-enactors?

[Robert Vermaat]

Discovery documentary comment:

This past week I watched a special on the Discovery Channel about ancient plastic surgery. I had seen a program earlier about how surgeons in ancient India developed nose repair techniques that are still in use today. This information was included in the new program but was augmented by an interesting discussion of Roman plastic surgery. The narrator said that the most important influence on the development of plastic surgery in ancient Rome was the social emphasis on bathing in public baths. To avoid scandalous remarks, many men with battle scars on their backs, or worse, scars from flogging, sought a remedy from Roman surgeons. This was especially true of former slaves who sought to have brands or whip marks removed. I was surprised to learn that one of the most commonly requested procedures was circumcision reversal. Another procedure described was male breast reduction.

Since the Discovery Channel gets a little over zealous in its documentaries at times, I was a little dubious. But, I found this article with references that presented consistent information:

"It was war injuries, of course, that really advanced Roman surgery. If you were lucky, your military unit would have a good medicus/chirurgus who could patch you up before you bled to death, and if you were really lucky he might retire to the same colonia that you were pensioned off to. (Chirurgus was really a corruption of the Greek word for surgeon, which transliterates into English as 'cheirourgos'. The pure Latin phrase for surgeon was actually 'medicus vulnerarius', which means, literally, 'wound doctor'.) Roman military surgeons were, in fact, only rivaled by specialist arena surgeons, who repaired valuable gladiators.

Roman surgeons were also adept at several forms of minor plastic surgery. They did facial and other repairs, removed growths, etc. The most common operation appears to have been male de-circumcision. Reversal of genital mutilation, which might have been the result of religious observance or mischance, was an important procedure which one would seek in order to avoid embarrassment when appearing naked at the baths or in the gymnasia."

The program also mentioned that the Emperor Elagabalus asked a Roman surgeon to perform a sex change operation on him. However, it said there was no further evidence that such a procedure was, in fact, done. The narrator mentioned coyly that when Elagabalus was assassinated, it may have been the first assassination of of a Roman Empress!

[tlclark]

Circumcision reversal?

Who other than Ethiopians and Jews was practicing circumcision?

Would love to have an ancient source for this. this is totally new to me.

Travis

[marsvigilia]

Alas it is not something I looked into. The whole idea kind freaked me out.
(Shudder)

[tlclark]

Plastic surgery?

Scar removal and circumcision reversal?

The Roman world continues to amaze me with it's endless complexity.

[Carlton Bach]

Circumcision reversal?

Who other than Ethiopians and Jews was practicing circumcision?

Would love to have an ancient source for this. this is totally new to me.

I'll need to recheck, but I'm pretty sure it's in Josephus' Jewish Antiquities. Hellenising Jews had their circumcisions 'reversed' (I'm not sure whether this was a surgical procedure or what we would consider a makeup technique) to participate in sports. This was necessary because (aside from the fact that the Greco-Roman body ideal required the penis to look small, which a circumcised one will not), showing the exposed glans in public was considered obscene. Men tied up their foreskins before exercises, sometimes even tying back their penises to prevent flopping. You couldn't do that properly with a circumcised one.

Roman surgery was pretty damn advanced for its possibilities.

[marsvigilia]

Wow. Now this is new to me. Fascinating. I would have thought with the obsession with images of Priapus, that large penises would have been preferred. Besides just general machismo. Do you have a reference for this?

Thanks.

[This was necessary because (aside from the fact that the Greco-Roman body ideal required the penis to look small, which a circumcised one will not), showing the exposed glans in public was considered obscene. Men tied up their foreskins before exercises, sometimes even tying back their penises to prevent flopping. You couldn't do that properly with a circumcised one.

[marsvigilia]

Historical authenticity is great, but I think I'll pass on reenacting this. Doesn't sound fun at all.

Men tied up their foreskins before exercises, sometimes even tying back their penises to prevent flopping.

[Carlton Bach]

Wow. Now this is new to me. Fascinating. I would have thought with the obsession with images of Priapus, that large penises would have been preferred. Besides just general machismo. Do you have a reference for this?

Thanks.

[This was necessary because (aside from the fact that the Greco-Roman body ideal required the penis to look small, which a circumcised one will not), showing the exposed glans in public was considered obscene. Men tied up their foreskins before exercises, sometimes even tying back their penises to prevent flopping. You couldn't do that properly with a circumcised one.

The only literary reference I know f is Aristophanes, who has a character in the 'Clouds' argue that following the right path would give them 'a shining breast, bright skin, broad shoulders, a small tongue, a large torso and a small penmis', which is seen as a positive thing. But if you look at Greco-Roman art you can see that, except for the God Priapus, idealised representations of male bodies always have small penises while figures of ridicule, comedic actors, slaves, and barbarians are often shown with grotesquely large ones.

Incidentally, this ideal may not have been shared through all social classes or under all circumstances. There is a reference in Petronius to a (probably lower-class or vulgar) fellow getting rounds of applause showing off his endowment in the baths, and one of the bad emperors (I was going to say Caligula, but I'm not sure aly more) had a hanger-on in his circle of friends known as 'onos' - the donkey - for similar reasons.

[Tarbicus]

I saw that documentary on Roman plastic surgery a while back. Liposuction without the suction was also a technique for getting rid of 'man breasts'. Without anaesthetic hock:

'onos' - the donkey - for similar reasons.

Anyone read Gates of Fire? "Wek up to thees!"

[tlclark]

Since I'm knee deep in Josephus on a daily basis, I decided to look this up.

This is the only thing I can find in Josephus on the matter. Antiquities of the Jews 12.5

Wherefore they desired his permission to build them a Gymnasium at Jerusalem. And when he had given them leave, they also hid the circumcision of their genitals, that even when they were naked they might appear to be Greeks. Accordingly, they left off all the customs that belonged to their own country, and imitated the practices of the other nations.

It doesn't explain of course HOW they hid their circumcision though.

Hmmm.

[Chariovalda]

I think this is something we have to be very careful about in the US. I realize it is historically correct, but it touches an open wound with a cattle prod. I am not saying that it necessarily shouldn't be done. But we need to think carefully.

Hmmm...understandable, but am I correct in saying that in this context the problem arises from the combination slave and black?

Would be wise to have only "white" slaves then. If you combine it with a "black" auxiliary (Moor with some sub-Saharan ancestry) or legionary ("yup, my family's from upper Egypt, Roman citizens since the divine Tiberius"), it would be a nice way of exploding traditional prejudices... :mrgreen:

[Primvs Pavlvs]

I imagine there were alot of pissy women in ancient Rome.

[marsvigilia]

You never know how things like this play out. Then there might be claims that this was an attempt to justify past slavery in the US by saying "See there were white slaves in Rome." Some might claim a white person has no business portraying a slave because his ancestors weren't brought over here in chains. Some might see it as offensive as "black face" Vaudeville routines.

I just think slavery is the third rail of American culture. Perhaps it shouldn't be, but it is. In Europe this wouldn't be such a big deal. But here in the US? It needs careful consideration.

Since the Romans did not want slaves to publicly appear any different from other civilians, perhaps the best slave reenactment would be simply to reenact being a civilian. If you really want to wear chains then reenact being a criminal or a prisoner of war.

Exploding prejudices frequently explode in your face.

Would be wise to have only "white" slaves then. If you combine it with a "black" auxiliary (Moor with some sub-Saharan ancestry) or legionary ("yup, my family's from upper Egypt, Roman citizens since the divine Tiberius"), it would be a nice way of exploding traditional prejudices... :mrgreen:

[Robert Vermaat]

Exploding prejudices frequently explode in your face.

best ignore them (or rehearse some good arguments if that helps), for if you don't you can stop re-enacting.

You're a Roman so you crucified Christ.
You're a Roman so you're a pagan and therefore to be banned from Christian events.
You're a Roman so you're a militarist
You're a Roman so you're repressing women

etc., etc. :roll:

[marsvigilia]

Yes, I know. Some people seem born with a chip on their shoulder ready to take offense at anything. You shouldn't live your life always being afraid of offending people for every little thing. I am just really afraid of this one issue. Many historical periods had slaves, but are rarely reenacted with slaves.

Exploding prejudices frequently explode in your face.

best ignore them (or rehearse some good arguments if that helps), for if you don't you can stop re-enacting.

You're a Roman so you crucified Christ.
You're a Roman so you're a pagan and therefore to be banned from Christian events.
You're a Roman so you're a militarist
You're a Roman so you're repressing women

etc., etc. :roll: