05-05-2006, 01:00 AM
Matthew Amt wrote:
Hello Matthew
Colours....Tunics...Hmm I think I may have written something on that subject before :wink:
After six years research (ongoing) and three books later, I would hardly say there is no evidence! There is a wealth of material out there, I love the debate on tunic colours and welcome any new evidence that comes to light or input from other researchers covering old ground or things I may have missed or even got wrong. However It helps if these can be backed by original sources or references, for example whereabouts does the above mentioned quote of Vegetius comes from to save me having to read it all again.
His reference to tunics the same colour as the sea comes from IV, 37.
I have seen a review of my books which then debated what colour sea Vegetius actually meant! In fact as I had in fact pointed out he later adds the additional information that the colour was 'Venetian' blue, therefore the same colour as the Blue circus faction. I also pointed out that the tombstone of a marine from Crete had traces of red paint on his tunic and cloak before I then get accused of saying all marines wore blue! :roll:
Jasper or Florian (sorry forget who :oops: ) sent me an article by Boris Rankov which poured water on the whole idea anyway, 'Now you see it, now you don't, the British Fleet in Vegetius IV 37. Limes XVIII
Why red, getting back to topic. Mars was depicted wearing a red tunic and cloak and the red circus faction dedicated their red tunics to him. Quintilianus in his Declamationes, III Declamatio, 'Pro Milite Contra Tribunum' wrote that a soldier wore the terrible dress of the god of war.
The later writer Isidore of Seville wrote that Roman soldiers used red dyed tunics and may have been nicknamed Russati because of that. Although not always considered reliable Isidore had used ancient sources. For our purposes his account of a red flag being hoisted on the eve and day of battle ties in well with the accounts of Caesar in Gallic War, II,4, & Civil Wars III,89 when he raises a flag or even Plutarchs account of Pharsalus when he says a tunic was raised! (Pompey 68) Isidore informs us that it was Spartans who had invented this dye and wore red to conceal their blood from their enemies so as not to encourage them, not because they themselves or the later Romans were squeamish about seeing their own blood.
Martial Epigrams, XIV, 129. Says that red was a colour soldiers liked.
As I said earlier I would disagree that there is a lack of evidence. There are many literary references to red military tunics many of which I have already written about and much more will be published in a new book which I am working on at the moment with Dr Raffaele D'Amato, due for publication next year.
Experts do not always help us either. The Palestrina mosiac has been called a Roman copy of a Ptolemaic original in a study by Meyboom. Sekunda also uses the Solomon fresco as evidence of Ptolemaic uniforms in his Montvert book on that subject. If they are correct then both these examples are not relevent to the Romans at all!
As is so often the case with Roman sources it is unfortunately more a matter of interpretation. I had hoped that I presented the information in my books in an unbiased manner in spite of my long association with the Ermine Street Guard, dare I say it, modern day leaders of the red faction. However as an archaeological illustrator and member of the Association of Archaeological Illustrators and Surveyors I have a duty to be as accurate as possible.
I provided a summary of the evidence I had collected but by and large left the readers to make up their own minds. My own conclusion was that the soldiers owned more than one tunic and that possibly the one worn in battle could have been red. As you point out they were regularly supplied with new clothing even if not as much as you suggest. In addition they could and did also receive additional clothing from home. I agree with you that white can not be dismissed on practical grounds as I myself have written.
I doubt whether any army in history has achieved total uniformity. Even film footage from the war in Iraq revealed American soldiers in a mixture of uniforms. The British army of the 18th 19th centuries closer in time to the Romans (Just) traditionally wore red but even a casual glance through the history books on the subject reveals that they also wore blue, white and green uniforms too. The officers generally wore red but a better quality scarlet than those of the grunts. Roman tunics in paintings and mosaics even some surviving fragments often appear pink. This is not due to fading or even being buried in the desert but more likely the material was just dipped in the madder dye once.
I would love to hear of any definite evidence for shield colours of the early imperial period. The later period is well covered although even here we have two versions of the Notitia but at least there are some surviving examples from Dura and some more new examples from Egypt., including another red based one depicting a military looking figure in a pink red tunic and dark red cloak.
Graham.
Quote:Pretty much every possible combination of "uniforms" has been suggested at some point. But it's all guesswork, without a shred of evidence. In the end, we can't prove uniformity at all. EXCEPT that Vegetius says that thing about the tunic, crest, and shield colors all matching--but is he right?
Hello Matthew
Colours....Tunics...Hmm I think I may have written something on that subject before :wink:
After six years research (ongoing) and three books later, I would hardly say there is no evidence! There is a wealth of material out there, I love the debate on tunic colours and welcome any new evidence that comes to light or input from other researchers covering old ground or things I may have missed or even got wrong. However It helps if these can be backed by original sources or references, for example whereabouts does the above mentioned quote of Vegetius comes from to save me having to read it all again.
Quote:There IS a (late) source that mentions this, though it might be more of a blue-green color to match the coastal sea. Sorry, I don't recall the reference exactly.
His reference to tunics the same colour as the sea comes from IV, 37.
I have seen a review of my books which then debated what colour sea Vegetius actually meant! In fact as I had in fact pointed out he later adds the additional information that the colour was 'Venetian' blue, therefore the same colour as the Blue circus faction. I also pointed out that the tombstone of a marine from Crete had traces of red paint on his tunic and cloak before I then get accused of saying all marines wore blue! :roll:
Jasper or Florian (sorry forget who :oops: ) sent me an article by Boris Rankov which poured water on the whole idea anyway, 'Now you see it, now you don't, the British Fleet in Vegetius IV 37. Limes XVIII
Why red, getting back to topic. Mars was depicted wearing a red tunic and cloak and the red circus faction dedicated their red tunics to him. Quintilianus in his Declamationes, III Declamatio, 'Pro Milite Contra Tribunum' wrote that a soldier wore the terrible dress of the god of war.
The later writer Isidore of Seville wrote that Roman soldiers used red dyed tunics and may have been nicknamed Russati because of that. Although not always considered reliable Isidore had used ancient sources. For our purposes his account of a red flag being hoisted on the eve and day of battle ties in well with the accounts of Caesar in Gallic War, II,4, & Civil Wars III,89 when he raises a flag or even Plutarchs account of Pharsalus when he says a tunic was raised! (Pompey 68) Isidore informs us that it was Spartans who had invented this dye and wore red to conceal their blood from their enemies so as not to encourage them, not because they themselves or the later Romans were squeamish about seeing their own blood.
Martial Epigrams, XIV, 129. Says that red was a colour soldiers liked.
Quote:Suffice it to say that there are only a few color depictions of what could be Roman soldiers. They do in fact show armored men wearing white tunics. One, the Palestrina mosaic, also shows an UNarmored man in a RED tunic. The Judgement of Solomon fresco shows 2 apparent grunts in what seem to be white tunics with yellow (brass/bronze) armor and helmets, and one man who is standing in a pose of authority with red tunic and silvered armor and helmet. The concept of wearing white while unarmored and red in armor is a THEORY, and not supported by the evidence.
As I said earlier I would disagree that there is a lack of evidence. There are many literary references to red military tunics many of which I have already written about and much more will be published in a new book which I am working on at the moment with Dr Raffaele D'Amato, due for publication next year.
Experts do not always help us either. The Palestrina mosiac has been called a Roman copy of a Ptolemaic original in a study by Meyboom. Sekunda also uses the Solomon fresco as evidence of Ptolemaic uniforms in his Montvert book on that subject. If they are correct then both these examples are not relevent to the Romans at all!
As is so often the case with Roman sources it is unfortunately more a matter of interpretation. I had hoped that I presented the information in my books in an unbiased manner in spite of my long association with the Ermine Street Guard, dare I say it, modern day leaders of the red faction. However as an archaeological illustrator and member of the Association of Archaeological Illustrators and Surveyors I have a duty to be as accurate as possible.
I provided a summary of the evidence I had collected but by and large left the readers to make up their own minds. My own conclusion was that the soldiers owned more than one tunic and that possibly the one worn in battle could have been red. As you point out they were regularly supplied with new clothing even if not as much as you suggest. In addition they could and did also receive additional clothing from home. I agree with you that white can not be dismissed on practical grounds as I myself have written.
I doubt whether any army in history has achieved total uniformity. Even film footage from the war in Iraq revealed American soldiers in a mixture of uniforms. The British army of the 18th 19th centuries closer in time to the Romans (Just) traditionally wore red but even a casual glance through the history books on the subject reveals that they also wore blue, white and green uniforms too. The officers generally wore red but a better quality scarlet than those of the grunts. Roman tunics in paintings and mosaics even some surviving fragments often appear pink. This is not due to fading or even being buried in the desert but more likely the material was just dipped in the madder dye once.
I would love to hear of any definite evidence for shield colours of the early imperial period. The later period is well covered although even here we have two versions of the Notitia but at least there are some surviving examples from Dura and some more new examples from Egypt., including another red based one depicting a military looking figure in a pink red tunic and dark red cloak.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
