Did Rome just fade away in her last years?

[stevesarak]

Ave,

I just found out that I don’t know how the Roman Empire actually ended. I always thought that the Turks (I think) over ran the walls of Rome in the east and ended the empire. But I just read something about Rome being around until 1453. hock:

That Rome’s emperors moved from Constantinople to outside provinces and the city stopped being an influence to her citizens. I’m not sure what happened after that, but it looks like the Empire just faded away. Could that be true, the great Empire of Rome just faded away. hock:

I could search the internet, but I know I’ll get better and to the point results here. Having an interest in Rome, I’d appreciate any information you could give on this. Right know I’m a sponge that needs to soak up information.

Thanks

[Tiberius Claudius Vindex]

Ave,

I just found out that I don’t know how the Roman Empire actually ended. I always thought that the Turks (I think) over ran the walls of Rome in the east and ended the empire. But I just read something about Rome being around until 1453. hock:

That Rome’s emperors moved from Constantinople to outside provinces and the city stopped being an influence to her citizens. I’m not sure what happened after that, but it looks like the Empire just faded away. Could that be true, the great Empire of Rome just faded away. hock:

I could search the internet, but I know I’ll get better and to the point results here. Having an interest in Rome, I’d appreciate any information you could give on this. Right know I’m a sponge that needs to soak up information.

Thanks

1453 was the year the Eastern empire fell to the Ottoman Turks. Interestingly though there is a monestary in Greece (I think) that still flys the Byzantine flag since the Turks never bothered to make them take it down. You could almost say that the Empire still exists there.

[Tarbicus]

Interestingly though there is a monestary in Greece (I think) that still flys the Byzantine flag since the Turks never bothered to make them take it down

A nice page with reconstructed flags:

[url:1wpshsdx]http://www.atlasgeo.net/fotw/flags/gr!byz.html[/url]



Worth following the links:

[url:1wpshsdx]http://www.atlasgeo.net/fotw/flags/gr_byz.html#eag[/url]

[stevesarak]

So in 1453 the Empire came to an end? no ifs, ands, or but. it didn't fade away, it ended, right?

[Carlton Bach]

So in 1453 the Empire came to an end? no ifs, ands, or but. it didn't fade away, it ended, right?

Well, unless you accept the idea that Charlemange had real legitimacy as a Roman successor emperor. In that case, it ends in 1806. Or 1814, if you take Napoleon as a usurper.

Anything with that much political juju isn't just going to 'end'.

[tlclark]

May 20th, 1453, Mahmed II took the city.

Mt Athos which was given to the monks of the Orthodox Church never recognized Ottoman authority and kept up the fight until liberation (then they fought the Greek gov't!)

They still fly the double headed eagle, last flag of the byzantine empire.

Travis

[stevesarak]

May 20th, 1453, Mahmed II took the city.

Mt Athos which was given to the monks of the Orthodox Church never recognized Ottoman authority and kept up the fight until liberation (then they fought the Greek gov't!)

They still fly the double headed eagle, last flag of the byzantine empire.

Travis

I’m assuming they lost against the Greeks, so they’re Greek even though they still fly the Byzantine flag, right? Or are they technically still the Byzantine Empire?

[tlclark]

Well the problem is, Mt Athos is about as accesible as the scottish highlands and every monastery is self-sufficient and well-fortified. It's a perfect place to run a guerilla war, and although various peoples have tried, it's never been completely pacified.

Honestly, Athos suffered more from internal attrition than exterior hostility. It's still an autonomous republic today, though in most cases it is compliant with EU and Greek authorities.

Travis

[stevesarak]

Well the problem is, Mt Athos is about as accesible as the scottish highlands and every monastery is self-sufficient and well-fortified. It's a perfect place to run a guerilla war, and although various peoples have tried, it's never been completely pacified.

Honestly, Athos suffered more from internal attrition than exterior hostility. It's still an autonomous republic today, though in most cases it is compliant with EU and Greek authorities.

Travis

I was thinking about this last nigh. If the governing body of a country falls with no replacement then so does that country. So it looks like the Roman Empire did fall even though the monastery held out. The monastery isn't claiming to be Rome, by flying the flag, only part of what used to be rome.

[Matthew Amt]

I was thinking about this last nigh. If the governing body of a country falls with no replacement then so does that country.

But the Roman government was replaced numerous times. Several waves of invaders went through Italy in the 5th century and later, and each conqueror set himself up as "king" and began to issue Roman-style coinage. Basically, they saw themselves as the legitimate rulers and actual successors to the classic Roman emperors. The last of what most people call real Roman emperors was Romulus Augustulus, deposed in 476 AD by Odoacer. You can call that the final Fall of Rome, if you like, though of course the Eastern Empire continued (and even reconquered part of the West). Or you can say that the end came in 285 AD when Diocletian split the Empire into East and West, each with an Augustus and a Caesar. Or 1453, the fall of Constantinople. Or the unification of Germany in the late 19th century, since before that it was the Holy Roman Empire whose rulers felt they were simply following the old line of succession. And today there is still the Roman Catholic Church, still ruled from Rome by the Pontifex Maximus. It all depends on how you look at it.

Vale,

Matthew

[stevesarak]

I was thinking about this last nigh. If the governing body of a country falls with no replacement then so does that country.

But the Roman government was replaced numerous times. Several waves of invaders went through Italy in the 5th century and later, and each conqueror set himself up as "king" and began to issue Roman-style coinage. Basically, they saw themselves as the legitimate rulers and actual successors to the classic Roman emperors. The last of what most people call real Roman emperors was Romulus Augustulus, deposed in 476 AD by Odoacer. You can call that the final Fall of Rome, if you like, though of course the Eastern Empire continued (and even reconquered part of the West). Or you can say that the end came in 285 AD when Diocletian split the Empire into East and West, each with an Augustus and a Caesar. Or 1453, the fall of Constantinople. Or the unification of Germany in the late 19th century, since before that it was the Holy Roman Empire whose rulers felt they were simply following the old line of succession. And today there is still the Roman Catholic Church, still ruled from Rome by the Pontifex Maximus. It all depends on how you look at it.

Vale,

Matthew

The people of Rome accepted (reluctantly or not) their new rulers.

I’d have to say that when a governing body falls, that unless it’s replaced by another that is accepted by either its people or other countries or its people are still fighting to regain control, then the country is considered fallen and ceases to exist.

It is possible for another country to invade and take over, replacing the government, but if it’s not accepted by its people or the other countries, then its invalid, and even though they may be in control, until a legitimate successor (accepted by the people or other countries) comes along, the country does not exist.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Well, unless you accept the idea that Charlemange had real legitimacy as a Roman successor emperor. In that case, it ends in 1806. Or 1814, if you take Napoleon as a usurper.

Or 1918. The Last Emperor: Wilhelm II. (A really, really bad one, btw.´)

[Felix]

Or Tsar Nicholas II of all the Russias. His throne at least had some connection with Constaninople, being part of the Orthodox half of Christendom.

[Carlton Bach]

Well, unless you accept the idea that Charlemange had real legitimacy as a Roman successor emperor. In that case, it ends in 1806. Or 1814, if you take Napoleon as a usurper.

Or 1918. The Last Emperor: Wilhelm II. (A really, really bad one, btw.´)

That is an interesting one. Do you know if the German Empire of 1871 was considered a legal continuation of the Holy Roman Empire? Because legal continuation *can* be established for all German states since, which would make us the gens togata 8)

[Robert Vermaat]

I can assure you that no Roman citizen had any idea that the Western Empire ended in 476 or in 480 when Julius Nepos died.
For the citizens of Constantinople it was quite different...