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Avete omnes,
Would anyone happen to know of any photographs of an original small pectorale breast plate worn by provocatores? I'm making one and have a good basic idea of what they should look like, but I really prefer to work from originals to get all the subtle details right, so if anyone can point me to a photograph of a real one, I'd appreciate it.
Vale
Matt
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As near as I can tell, there are no surviving pectorales, at least those used by gladiators. Dr Junkelmann has a photo in Das Spiel mit dem Todt of what he says is a pectorale, but the construction is such that I have my doubts. Probably the best source for a pectorale design is the Tiber relief showing two provocators in combat. Both front and back images are shown, clearly depicting the strap arrangement. Good luck on the reconstruction
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To tell the truth, Junkelmann shows on page 83 the possible pectorale of the Gutmann collection.
Matt i can try to scan it for you and then will send it.
real Name Tobias Gabrys
Flavii <a class="postlink" href="http://www.flavii.de">www.flavii.de
& Hetairoi <a class="postlink" href="http://www.hetairoi.de">www.hetairoi.de
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Salve Tib.,
Salvete Omnes,
Thanks for your usual helpfulness and co-operation but Matt already has the pics from the Junkelmann book of the Junkelmann reconstruction, because I'd forwarded him the ones you'd already scanned for me since his query here is regarding the pectorale he's making for me.
What Matt and I were discussing now was the shape of the neck. Junkelmann has a reconstruction of a U-shape neck which I personally think more comfortable to wear than a V-shape neck as it is shown on that relief. I wonder how precise the artist was who made that relief, if the pectorales were really V-shaped as shown, or if he just thought it was simpler to make it V-shaped on the stone and the real thing was with a U-shape.
What do you guys think on that subject?
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True, but if there's a possible original from the Guttmann collection in the book as well as Junkelmann's reconstruction, I'd definitely like to see it Tobias  I've collected images of a number of the pieces from Pompeii and have a good idea of the general features of gladiatorial armor of the period, I had simply hoped for a detail or two about this specific type. I don't much like having to work from other's reconstructions just in case all I end up doing is repeating their mistakes- original artifacts are definitely the preferred source.
I'm glad you pointed out the Tiber relief Martin, I found a photo of that the other day, so knowing it is considered useful by others makes me feel better about refering to it. It's the evidence of a V-shaped neck that Svenja is talking about- it's quite clear. This had made me wonder why Junkelmann's reconstruction has a U-shaped neck. The detail of the relief makes me comfortable in beliving it is an accurate depiction- unless there is something to contradict it that is. Until now, though, I haven't found any such thing.
Given that the majority of lorica segmentata artifacts show this to be their neck shape (V), it was certainly not seen as uncomfortable or dangerous, so it seems perfectly resonable to me that the pectorale could indeed have had it as well. But if there's an actual artifact (the Guttmann piece), perhaps it is to Junkelmann went for the shape?
Matt
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Are not the bottom of provocateur helmets (like the pompeii ones) a rounded v shape at the neck/face piece? This would perhaps suggest a V-ish profile?
http://www.roman-empire.net/articles/article-013.html
(Junklemann has better pics but this is handy)
sounds like a cop out but the helmet is designed to fit witht he breast plate so why not match the profiles with a little overlap?
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Salve Matt,
The pectorale from the Guttmann collection which Tiberius had pointed out looks more like a metal collar and Junkelmann assumes that this rare piece dates to the 2nd or 3rd century CE and comes from the Eastern Mediterranean.
From the same time though dates a relief from Aphrodisias which shows very clearly the shape of the pectorale as Junkelmann has reconstructed it (to be found on page 82 of "Das Spiel mit dem Tod"). That pectorale looks like a bib with a U-shaped neck. On the same page is another picture but that is highly stylized, nonetheless you could see clearly that the pectorale is still like a bib and not like a collar, though you can't identify what shape the neck has.
I'll try to scan those pics in when I come to the office tomorrow morning. My co-worker whose terminal is connected to the scanner is on vacation so chances are good that I could use it. :lol:
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Did a quick count of the Pectorale depictions in "Das Spiel mit dem Tod". Aside from the original find I found 6 of them on reliefs, 5 of them U-shaped, 1 (the one mentioned above) V-shaped, and that V is so flattened out and curved that it's not far from a shallow U either. Some are more broadish, covering only the breast, others come further down, but are narrower. Looking at this and at how much cover they actually provide, I'd say the reconstructions shown in "Das Spiel mit dem Tod" are within acceptable range.
After having worn Marcus' reconstructions in a number of Provocator fights, more critical for the reconstruction (and for the wearer, eventually), I find is the way the upper ends of that U are done (after having worn Marcus' reconstructions in a number of Provocator fights). Ours are a tad too short IMHO, they should rather come up to the highest point of the shoulder, maybe even over that a bit. This is mainly to protect your high breast/collarbone area from being all red and blue after a few rounds - not from hits you receive from your opponent but from the too short/low ends biting into your flesh when making sword or shield thrusts. Too bad I didn't have my camera with me last weekend, could have shown you very colorfully (literally) what I mean ... ;-) )
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Yippeeeh, I managed it to scan in the pictures and even to extract the pictures only, so I don't have the whole page scanned in. There are little reference numbers below the pics so I will translate what's written there in the book.
Page 82
115: Fragment of relief with representation of a provocator from Aphrodisias, 2nd century CE. [...] The pectorale is decorated with a rosette. [...] Aphrodisias, Museum, After Ch. Roueché 1993, Pl. VII/19.
116: Provocator lying on the floor. Fragment of a gladiator relief from Ephesos, 3rd century CE, Vienna, Kunsthisotrisches Museum.
Page 83
117: Pectorale of a provocator of unknown provenance. Katalog No. P1, Berlin, Axel Guttmann Collection
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Quote:After having worn Marcus' reconstructions in a number of Provocator fights, more critical for the reconstruction (and for the wearer, eventually), I find is the way the upper ends of that U are done (after having worn Marcus' reconstructions in a number of Provocator fights). Ours are a tad too short IMHO, they should rather come up to the highest point of the shoulder, maybe even over that a bit. This is mainly to protect your high breast/collarbone area from being all red and blue after a few rounds - not from hits you receive from your opponent but from the too short/low ends biting into your flesh when making sword or shield thrusts. Too bad I didn't have my camera with me last weekend, could have shown you very colorfully (literally) what I mean ... ;-) )
I definitely want it, too, that it comes over the highest point of the shoulder. I think Mark will see that from the paper sample I'd sent because I made the U's long enough. And I definitely want one similar to the Junkelmann reconstruction than this weird collar.
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All very interesting- the input is much appreciated. So it appears that the general size and shape is pretty clearly known- 6 or 7 releifs all showing the same details is a fairly convincing body of evidence.
Thanks for pointing-out the issue with the shoulder area Martin- it's something I had indeed wondered about. One image of Junkelmann's reconstruction clearly shows the plate curving over the wearer's shoulder quite significantly, something that I had considered rather important for fit let alone comfort. It makes perfect sense that if it were too short one could indeed expect the pectorale itself to cause minor injury to the wearer...
Matt
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FWIW here are a few pics from our first fights this year, showing one of the pectorales in some places. I didn't realize it at the time (probably because I was too preoccupied with my first appearance as Thraex ;-) ) ), but on one of the pics the provocator is wearing his pectorale too low, certainly a cause for his self-inflicted bruises ...
Thraex and Provocator
Murmillo and Thraex
Thraex
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